Why single sex spaces

[DorsVenabili]

the debate about single sex space re trans rights has made me question the basis for single sex spaces in general (and not just in this context) - more philosophically. There doesn't seem much discussion in the various acts as to why they are needed.
I think my question is what do we feel more comfortable being naked in front of people of the same sex- is this nature or nurture/society. I don't think its to do with sexuality as a woman ( and as a girl)- i don't feel more comfortable with homosexual men than I would with lesbians

It is not just about sexual assault or male gaze, it is also about power. Patriarchy, strength and reproductive roles give men power over women both at the societal level but also at a personal level. It is not risk of assault that means there are less women in positions of power/leadership/authority. If changing rooms are mixed sex then men have control, women's needs are ignored. Women only groups give women a voice they don't get in mixed sex groups. It gives us representation. Just look at what happened when men (transwomen) entered that Irish book group discussing 'Invisible Women' - women's needs were made invisible again.

I suspect it might be easier to prosecute voyeurs if they were found in opposite sex toilets - eg recorded on cctv that they entered. What reason would they have for going in? If it was mixed sex, things would be a bit harder?

Of course it doesn’t stop same sex voyeurs. But this is a lower percentage of the population, and just because you can’t stop everything, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do things to reduce risk.

But I would be strongly in favour of more 3rd space full floor to ceiling toilets with washbasin - for several reasons, including families with older children, people who don’t wish to use single sex and are not eligible for disabled toilets

[quote Cascascascas]@334bu

Wow you have a lot of bias.
Seek help
I can feel the anger In
Your statement

I hope you haven’t been hurt but I suggest consider counselling.[/quote]
Why would you leap to that? Seems odd

There are so many blatantly obvious reasons why women want and need single sex spaces, that if the OP is really interested in the question of 'do we feel more comfortable being naked in front of people of the same sex- is this nature or nurture/society', then it might be worth asking men. Because as far as I'm aware they also often want male only spaces too. Mens loos are hardly ever the ones labelled as 'gender neutral', and I seem to remember one of the first well publicised trans discrimination cases involving changing rooms was a TM being refused access to a male gym. (I can't remember the outcome).

if the OP is really interested in the question of 'do we feel more comfortable being naked in front of people of the same sex- is this nature or nurture/society', then it might be worth asking men.

Not sure if you want to hear a man's thoughts, but as you've asked...

I know personally in the context of something like changing rooms, I would only feel comfortable undressing in front of other males. I guess I would feel very self-conscious if there was a woman watching me naked. I would worry that I would causing them embarrassment or discomfort, although I don't suppose I would feel threatened in the same way that I appreciate women feel if the position is reversed.

I can't believe it's nature - I'm not an evolutionary psychologist or anthropologist, but in "primitive" societies isn't nudity more commonplace, suggesting it's more about what you are used to? At school, I would have got changed in male changing rooms (and even then, I would have been self-conscious about being naked in front of others - and some would have been more or less self-conscious than me), and got used to it as no big deal - no-one's that interested in looking at my body!

Did OP ever come back? 🎣

@midgedude

I feel the whole need for single sex spaces is rooted in mysogeny,

If women didn't suffer sexual abuse and violence , if men didn't ogle and banter , if a body was just a body and nothing to get excited about then the need would be much reduced

Single sex sport isn't "rooted in misogyny". Nor are women only maternity units. They're just common sense. Single sex prisons aren't there (I should really say weren't there ☹️) because of misogyny but safety, and avoiding pregnancies, bringing unwanted babies into the prison population. I'd say the ideology responsible for mixing up the sexes in prison is rooted in misogyny, in a total disregard for women's safety and a disregard for future unwanted babies to top it off.

I'm sorry that for some trans women may be also at risk from male sexual violence and I understand why they would want to take advantage of women's safe spaces.

It is not women's job to solve make violence. All it takes to prevent rape is for men to choose not to rape.

*but in "primitive" societies isn't nudity more commonplace, suggesting it's more about what you are used to" yeah sure and in primitive societies the women were just whacked over the head and dragged off.
We evolved.

^ sorry about the bold fail

in primitive societies the women were just whacked over the head and dragged off.

A lot of these loonies live in a weird reality bubble where they genuinely think "rape" is a colonial concept and there was no violence against women in indigenous cultures until the evil Europeans arrived.

There is a point in that shame can be problematic in itself, but what happens in the absence of shame could be even more problematic.

Sometimes taboos or cultural norms are actually serving a purpose. Something being "normative" does not mean that tearing it up will improve things.

Unisex changing room at Haven caravan park. Fat middle aged women takes her 4 year old DD into the changing cubicle. Dirty bastard peeks his head over the top of the cubicle to watch who getting changed? Fat middle aged woman or 4 year old girl?

Opportunity, vulnerability and dirty bastard = crime of voyeurism

I will fight for single sexed spaces for my DD, for me and for women.

@Gncq

*but in "primitive" societies isn't nudity more commonplace, suggesting it's more about what you are used to" yeah sure and in primitive societies the women were just whacked over the head and dragged off. We evolved.

First of all, I wasn't making a value-judgement over whether ancient or non-Western societies were better or worse, just that it is surely evidence that it can't be a fixed part of our nature to be uncomfortable with nudity. Which links to my second point...

Second, my understanding is that we haven't evolved, in the biological sense: there hasn't been enough time for our brains to have changed from our Stone Age ancestors. But I suppose we can say social conventions have evolved, so that comes back to nurture - many of us are raised in a way that nudity in front of the other sex is not something we are used to.

Women are safer in single sex facilities.
That's about it really.
Even 'nice' men lech at naked women.
The all women train carriage is an admittance that the behaviour of some men cannot be managed or mitigated.
That's not changing any time soon. If ever.
Prosecution, CCTV are all quite pointless as it still requires a woman to be hurt to enable a man to be punished for hurting her. I'd rather we make it harder for women to be hurt in the first place.
My comfort if you want to call it that, comes from feeling safer. I don't find other women threatening. I am wary of strange men. I'm not a misandrist but I have been assaulted, intimidated and made to feel uncomfortable around men. I know how some men view women. I don't want to be fodder for their nasty thoughts and actions.

I don't think complete nudity at all times has ever been usual in any society.

Even in tropical places at least loincloths or skirts / kilts were worn, traditionally. I think the smallest covering is the penis sheath such as worn by some tribes in Papua New Guinea.

@JellySaurus

I'm sorry that for some trans women may be also at risk from male sexual violence and I understand why they would want to take advantage of women's safe spaces.

It is not women's job to solve make violence. All it takes to prevent rape is for men to choose not to rape.

Wasn't that what I went on to say in the rest of the post you didn't include? we're in agreement women are not support humans

It isn't sexuality, but sexuality plus power, in the same way racism is prejudice plus power, rather than being equal in all directions. Lesbians don't have the power men have or conditioning to take what they want.

Men feel and behave (and are told by society) that they have an entitlement to female bodies, that our bodies are theirs to judge and they know they can easily over power us.

When our local high school made the toilets unisex, it was the boys mocking any girl who "pissed like a horse" while they got away with pissing like a faulty, unhygienic sprinklers. That is a power dynamic, the girls don't have the same power to mock actually gross behaviours, while the boys set the standard for female bodily functions and girls with healthy strong pelvic floors stop drinking to avoid the toilets.

There are also a number of patriarchal religions, telling women the onus is on them to stop their bodies being seen. This hasn't completely gone from any society, even non religious women know they'll be held responsible for their own vulnerabilities to assault.

It will be a long time before we reset that as society, and doing away with safe places will just set that back, it erodes boundaries.

@AlexaIWillNeverSayDucking

It isn't sexuality, but sexuality plus power, in the same way racism is prejudice plus power, rather than being equal in all directions. Lesbians don't have the power men have or conditioning to take what they want.

Men feel and behave (and are told by society) that they have an entitlement to female bodies, that our bodies are theirs to judge and they know they can easily over power us.

When our local high school made the toilets unisex, it was the boys mocking any girl who "pissed like a horse" while they got away with pissing like a faulty, unhygienic sprinklers. That is a power dynamic, the girls don't have the same power to mock actually gross behaviours, while the boys set the standard for female bodily functions and girls with healthy strong pelvic floors stop drinking to avoid the toilets.

There are also a number of patriarchal religions, telling women the onus is on them to stop their bodies being seen. This hasn't completely gone from any society, even non religious women know they'll be held responsible for their own vulnerabilities to assault.

It will be a long time before we reset that as society, and doing away with safe places will just set that back, it erodes boundaries.

Very good post. I agree patriarchy and power is a key part

Which means a gay man can judge a woman’s body far more detrimentally and we still need to be protected

Prisons, refuges, rape crisis centres, hospital wards, elderly care, security staff, sports - it's not just about changing rooms. 'Space' means a lot more.

Why have I got to justify why I want and need a female only single sex space and/or service?

I want single sex spaces and services to be just that, single sex, the end. I don't consent to any men being in there whatever they feel internally, however they are dressed, whatever they've done or not done to their bodies.

If there are men out there who don't want to use the single sex spaces and services provided for them, tough, their problem to sort out and they don't sort it out by deciding that they can come into female single sex spaces and services, assuming consent or steamrollering over objections. Either they use the spaces and services provided for their sex or lobby for a separate space and service that meets their needs, female single sex spaces and services are not theirs to take or demand access to.

Why have I got to justify why I want and need a female only single sex space and/or service?

Interesting isn’t it that women are forced to justify why they need female only spaces, get called bigots and worse for wanting/ needing them
Yet males who want access to them aren’t forced to explain why…

Absolutely, GoldenBlue. Some things are worth repeating

What you all said but I also think it's about boundaries. Switching from single-sex to mixed-sex changing rooms means erasing a boundary and thus decreasing women's (and girls') ability to control access to their naked bodies. The underlying logic is that we shouldn't have the right to limit the access of male-bodied people to our unclothed bodies. Why should I be required to allow males to see me naked if I want to go to the pool, buy clothing at a store, etc? Why can't I have that boundary? Why is it important to other people that I don't have that boundary?

@DorsVenabili

the debate about single sex space re trans rights has made me question the basis for single sex spaces in general (and not just in this context) - more philosophically. There doesn't seem much discussion in the various acts as to why they are needed. I think my question is what do we feel more comfortable being naked in front of people of the same sex- is this nature or nurture/society. I don't think its to do with sexuality as a woman ( and as a girl)- i don't feel more comfortable with homosexual men than I would with lesbians

Let me tell you something about women's toilets.

We don't get naked in front of anyone.

We go in a cubicle, attend to our needs, wash our hands and leave.

Not wanting to share facilities with males is about our personal safety, not about who sees us naked.