Why single sex spaces

[DorsVenabili]

the debate about single sex space re trans rights has made me question the basis for single sex spaces in general (and not just in this context) - more philosophically. There doesn't seem much discussion in the various acts as to why they are needed.
I think my question is what do we feel more comfortable being naked in front of people of the same sex- is this nature or nurture/society. I don't think its to do with sexuality as a woman ( and as a girl)- i don't feel more comfortable with homosexual men than I would with lesbians

@JellySaurus

When you make choices sometimes some doors get closed to you I'm afraid.

Blimey! You're not expecting adult behaviour are you?

Travel in hope...

Isn't there a risk posed by women who are taking male hormones (as these increase strength and aggression) in female only spaces?

No.

Also, if women identifying as men still use the female only spaces, that is obviously fine for those cases. But as some of these women may look like men, won't this raise the possibility that some men will use these facilities, claiming that they are women (trans men)?

People don’t tend to pass as well as they think they do. Some men will take any opportunity and go to great lengths to get into the women’s toilets though. Which is why women’s toilets need to remain single sex.

Wouldn't it be safer to exclude trans from female only spaces entirely?

I’m not sure who you mean by ‘trans’ and that’s not a term I’d use but, still no. All women regardless of any gender identity they have or of none, are welcome to female single sex facilities. Because they’re still women. No men are welcome in there, however they may identify or don’t. Because they’re still men.

All women regardless of any gender identity they have or of none, are welcome to female single sex facilities

No. Not for me. Not trans men on hormones with beards and deep voices. No. I don't think that is settled at all.

@ChattyLion
No.

Do you honestly believe women never pose a risk to other women? Do you think all women agree?

People don’t tend to pass as well as they think they do.

But isn't easier for a man to pass as as a trans man (i.e. a man pretending to be a woman pretending to be a man) than a trans woman? And they only have to pass well enough that they don't look so obviously not a trans man that they are immediately reported.

I’m not sure who you mean by ‘trans’ and that’s not a term I’d use but, still no. All women regardless of any gender identity they have or of none, are welcome to female single sex facilities. Because they’re still women.

Trans are non cis gendered.
Some (cis) women disagree with your position. Are they allowed to veto, or not?

Women committing sex crimes is rare. And in the unlikely event a woman tried to sexually assault me in a changing room or wherever, I think I'd have a much better chance at fighting her off than I would if it was a man.

This, really.

Why are transmen afraid to use the male toilets? Because biological men are in there.

Why are women afraid to use toilets if trans women are in there? Because biological me are in there.

The problem? Women? Nope, biological males.

Do you honestly believe women never pose a risk to other women? Do you think all women agree?

Of course some women pose a risk to others but statistically compared to males of all gender identities, the risk is very small. Almost all sex offenders are male with males who identify as women just as likely to offend as any other male. The same is true of offenders who commit violent crimes, although here the numbers of women offenders is higher but still very few compared to male offenders.

Eg
In a restaurant a woman in a couple got drunk. Quietly at table. When stood up she could barely stand) walk.
Atmosphere went v cold. Everyone watching disapprovingly. As her OH helped her out, woman stood up and did loud denunciation of her behaviour as she went past. No one batted an eyelid.

I'd have told that interfering Karen to get tae fuck!

Do you honestly believe women never pose a risk to other women? Do you think all women agree?

Of course a tiny number of women pose a risk to other women. But statistically we are overwhelmingly more likely to be attacked by a man than a woman.

We are also overwhelmingly, when attacked by another woman, less likely to be sexually assaulted.

Sexual assault is easier in private / secluded spaces therefore more likely in a bathroom than in the open.

I'm not sure how anyone could argue with those facts.

We had this the other day.

Points are that-

Transmen are not going on about this. They are not insisting to go xyz and etc. I mean there may be but so I've not heard. Transmen vigorously arguing to be in bogs changing labelled men or women. I remember a transboy in USA come to think of it...

This is about males and women's spaces. Let's be straightforward. Transmen are only ever brought up by anyone arguing for males to come in, as a gotcha.

Additionally.

Transmen grew up as girls, likely women for a time. As such they understand a load of stuff at a fundamental level.
IMO transmen who pass or have characteristics that they know will make women and girls think... Bloke. Then they are very unlikely to want to upset/ scare / piss off by using female facilities.
That's an assumption but... I think a pretty fair one.

Things transmen will have experienced before transition (pretty much certainly)

• Having inadequate facilities. Having to queue for ages etc.

• Been in a situation in toilets/ changing etc where there was something to do with a man/ men/ boy/ boys that set off the radars of women/ girls there. So many different examples.

• Very possibly knew a woman well who did a certain amount of planning around toilet availability. Things like. Pregnancy, post childbirth, getting towards elderly. All things not uncommon to mean a short or long term loss of bladder control to a greater or lesser extent.

And big point is. I can't imagine a transman would WANT to use the ladies. Undermines something of extreme importance to their sense of self.

My point is that transmen will likely to take into account how well they pass, how likely they are to cause alarm, if they are prepared to use ladies.

And take the option that is best all round even if it means checking for gender neutral etc options available where going.

And this is all by the bye as TM are not the ones making the noise, men aren't saying anything on the topic etc.

They are vanishingly unlikely to be pervy creeps and / or a physical risk to either sex.

So. Pointless conversation.

@KayKayWat

Eg In a restaurant a woman in a couple got drunk. Quietly at table. When stood up she could barely stand) walk. Atmosphere went v cold. Everyone watching disapprovingly. As her OH helped her out, woman stood up and did loud denunciation of her behaviour as she went past. No one batted an eyelid.

I'd have told that interfering Karen to get tae fuck!

Interesting response

VERY interesting.

As a VISITOR in a different country with it's own culture, standards of behaviour, norms.

You would STAND UP and tell the woman who berated the drunk one.

To GET TO FUCK. And you'd call her a Karen???!!!

Blimey. That's. Incredibly arrogant!

I mentioned it was abroad I'm sure.

Do you speak a lot of languages? This was in Austria. Not a language widely studied I don't think? Do you have German? It's quite different but probably get by...

I'm hazarding a guess you're not fluent in Austrian.

So in a different country. With a woman berating another for being drunk in Austrian. You would stand up (pretty posh hotel restaurant) and tell her (in English?) to get to fuck. And call her a Karen. Which might well mean nothing to her.

That's a really interesting post. Thank you.

XY = penis and male drive towards women. Therefore XY are separated from XX.

It's not up to XX to avoid XY in case they want to stare/grope/rape, it's up to XY to follow basic rules and use the male facilities.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

Do you honestly believe women never pose a risk to other women? Do you think all women agree?

Of course a tiny number of women pose a risk to other women. But statistically we are overwhelmingly more likely to be attacked by a man than a woman.

We are also overwhelmingly, when attacked by another woman, less likely to be sexually assaulted.

Sexual assault is easier in private / secluded spaces therefore more likely in a bathroom than in the open.

I'm not sure how anyone could argue with those facts.

I'm not sure why you focused on that sentence and not this: "But isn't easier for a man to pass as as a trans man (i.e. a man pretending to be a woman pretending to be a man) than a trans woman? And they only have to pass well enough that they don't look so obviously not a trans man that they are immediately reported."

I'm clearly suggesting that the big concern isn't trans men. Some of them might pose a threat. But the main concern is that if women are expected to share with trans men (some of whom look like men) it is going to be easier for men to gain access and women will be less inclined to report/ask them to leave and so they will be at greater risk.

Kosmin please refer to my post 00.26 re transmen and female spaces. That should cover a fair bit of your comment.

On the other parts of your last post.

Reported to WHO exactly? And on what grounds?

Gender presentation and internal gender ID, are not related. That is something that has been stated for a long time.

Additionally. Women judging other women on appearance is wrong. Anti feminist. Gatekeeping 'womanhood'. Oppressive for women who don't measure up to some feminine standard of appearance. Etc etc.

The expectation is that women and girls make no assumptions based on looks, clothes, any aspect of physical appearance.

It's cruel and transphobic to give any reaction, any hint that you are even thinking ... Erm. That's a bloke.

So not sure what your point is tbh.

Kosmin

But isn't easier for a man to pass as as a trans man (i.e. a man pretending to be a woman pretending to be a man) than a trans woman?

Simply put: no.

These are all transwomen. Who is it easier to look like for a man? Another person born male who happens to have gender dysphoria, like one of these people, or dainty Elliot Page who is 5 foot 1, and weighs about 7 stone?

www.pennlive.com/life/2020/07/dr-rachel-levine-remains-laser-focused-despite-critics-insults-their-health-is-still-important-to-me.html Assistant Secretary of Health of the USA

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/i-want-widen-bandwidth-gender-9686747 Stonewall Adviser

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-35726292 Davina Ayrton

But a male man boy doesn't need to do ANYTHING.

Bog standard male blokey chap comes in with a friend who is male and blokey.

Big strong tall bearded deep voices. Erm. One with a t-shirt saying Dave's stag 2009 with photo of load of men. Other with pint in hand and chatting about strip clubs.

I mean. You know. Men.

To assume they are men is bigoted. You don't know their internal gender ID. women can be tall. Have deep voices etc. Some women love strip clubs! Etc.

Then a blind eye must be turned.

Full stop.

So this current conversation is interesting but in the end beside the point.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9025703/Transgender-police-officer-44-self-identifies-woman-19-years-force.html

More transwomen

Interesting response

VERY interesting.

As a VISITOR in a different country with it's own culture, standards of behaviour, norms.

You would STAND UP and tell the woman who berated the drunk one.

To GET TO FUCK. And you'd call her a Karen???!!!

Blimey. That's. Incredibly arrogant!

I mentioned it was abroad I'm sure.

Do you speak a lot of languages? This was in Austria. Not a language widely studied I don't think? Do you have German? It's quite different but probably get by...

I'm hazarding a guess you're not fluent in Austrian.

So in a different country. With a woman berating another for being drunk in Austrian. You would stand up (pretty posh hotel restaurant) and tell her (in English?) to get to fuck. And call her a Karen. Which might well mean nothing to her.

That's a really interesting post. Thank you.

It was a figure of speech so I probably wouldn't use those exact words. But if I was quietly having a few drinks with my partner and happened to wobble a bit when getting up....well, if a complete stranger started laying into me I'd absolutely tell her to fuck off and I wouldn't care who was listening. Bet she wouldn't try this shit with a man getting quietly tipsy with a mate!

Are you saying that you would rather be complicit in chiding women who don't stay in their box? Publicly shame them for not being ladylike enough? Sounds rather patriarchal/handmaidenish.

The TW photos above are really convincing me that TW are not women. When do women get a rise out of putting women off using loos, and when did women mean adult human man?

Lol.

You haven't answered any of my questions!

You stated that you would have no compunction about reacting negatively, in a different country, with different culture norms etc.

You believe it's absolutely ok to tell someone off in their own society for doing something that is not the way in yours.

That says quite a lot about you. About other people's norms, acceptable behaviour etc. Being no barrier to you if you don't like them.

Yep. Interesting.

The questions though. Can you speak or understand Austrian? Why the term Karen? Swearing at her when you didn't understand what exactly she said?

Standing up and swearing in English seems very... Well. You'd have to do it loudly and slowly obv as then any who didn't speak English would understand.

I'm not impressed by your rewriting the whole situation either.

That's not an argument that's just obvious goalpost moving/ trying to divert.

Oh and icing on the cake. My behaviour was wrong and I was colluding in oppressing her.

Yep. All very interesting.

Oh and yes if the man had been falling down drunk in the fancy hotel restaurant I have no doubt she would have.

Austrians are not same as us. Different culture. You're guessing. Badly.

The main reason for single sex spaces, I would think, is to keep people who could find each other sexually attractive separated from one another. Separating men and women achieves this for the most part.

Eh?

You think it's to stop people what?
I can only assume you mean shagging?
As clearly mutual flirting is hardly a problem!

Can you give more info?

Why do you think this is the main reason for single sex wards?

People in hosp are generally not feeling tip top. Elderly people can be in long term, they need to be separate to stop them getting down to it?

Can you elaborate. I've not heard this view before and it's an interesting take.

@bythere

The main reason for single sex spaces, I would think, is to keep people who could find each other sexually attractive separated from one another. Separating men and women achieves this for the most part.

do you really think this is the reason? To stop people having random sex?

I have had 3 children. honestly I would be happy to walk down main street naked from the point of view of worry about my body etc.

I absolutely do not want to be naked in front of men in an enclosed environment because I know what male sexual violence - indeed male violence - is like. Today my dd and her friend aged 19 had a man come up to them and say "I'd like to smell your ass". they ran into a nearby hotel and he followed them in 2 steps behind. Receptionist called security.

I was a member of a woman only gym for a while - large proportion of lesbians - the friend who recommended me to go there is a lesbian. I had no problem stripping off or having others strip off or walk around naked because the atmosphere was welcoming, non-sexual, non-violent. If someone saw me and thought to themselves "she's cute" more power to them. If I felt that was the only risk men posed - seeing me and thinking "she's cute" without any other expectation then maybe I'd think differently.