Why single sex spaces

[DorsVenabili]

the debate about single sex space re trans rights has made me question the basis for single sex spaces in general (and not just in this context) - more philosophically. There doesn't seem much discussion in the various acts as to why they are needed.
I think my question is what do we feel more comfortable being naked in front of people of the same sex- is this nature or nurture/society. I don't think its to do with sexuality as a woman ( and as a girl)- i don't feel more comfortable with homosexual men than I would with lesbians

There doesn't seem much discussion in the various acts as to why they are needed.

Perhaps you missed the thread about a 14 year old girl being raped by a skirt wearing 15 year old male in the female toilets at her school. Or the Wi Spa threads, or the JY "let me help you with your tampon" threads. Or for that matter any of the other threads detailing sexual violence perpetrated by males no matter how they identify. Have a look at Women Are Human or any newspaper any day of the week.

Is this still the feminist section?

@Cuck00soup I agree toilets is not the strongest scenario to argue to argue as it doesn't have as many complexities as showers, prisons, refuges etc. But it's still an important argument to have as it impacts on our daughters in schools before they've had a chance to learn boundaries and safety and it normalises penises in women's spaces

Toilets are a perfectly good place for women to retain their need for female only spaces.

My point to those seeking validation is that there really isn't anything for them to see.

My point to those seeking validation is that there really isn't anything for them to see.

Walking through the door marked 'Women' and being in there with women is the validation, women feeling uncomfortable or worse is just an added bonus.

There doesn't seem much discussion in the various acts as to why they are needed.

Maybe because the vast majority of people know and it goes without saying?

[quote Cascascascas]@334bu

Wow you have a lot of bias.
Seek help
I can feel the anger In
Your statement

I hope you haven’t been hurt but I suggest consider counselling.[/quote]
What’s with the haiku?

To those who have misunderstood my posts, when I refer to those seeking validation, I am referring to male bodied people with the condition we are not allowed to name.

I am not in any way suggesting there is anything wrong with women wanting separate female only spaces or anything right with men wishing to colonise them.

@DorsVenabili

the debate about single sex space re trans rights has made me question the basis for single sex spaces in general (and not just in this context) - more philosophically. There doesn't seem much discussion in the various acts as to why they are needed. I think my question is what do we feel more comfortable being naked in front of people of the same sex- is this nature or nurture/society. I don't think its to do with sexuality as a woman ( and as a girl)- i don't feel more comfortable with homosexual men than I would with lesbians

I think this is a perfectly good question. It's pretty clear to me there is a significant element to this that is cultural. We feel quite happy to have public beaches where we all go around in what amounts to our underclothes. 150 years ago adults often wanted separate bathing areas and in any case they would have felt completely vulnerable and embarrassed to be wearing what we do in a mixed sex swimming area. (OTOH, many people in single sex environments swam naked while many of people now are uncomfortable with open nudity in single sex change rooms or showers.) There are also cultures where there are more single sex spaces and some we might think are unnecessary.

There is an element about this that is not just about safety but also dignity, and that depends in part of cultural norms. Western society since the 1960s has been very interested in devaluing cultural norms as arbitrary and restrictive, but I would say that misses the point. Many are not in fact arbitrary in their entirety, but even when that is an element, that doesn't mean there is not a good reason for the construct to exist. Driving on the left side of the road is arbitrary too, but it's important in order to structure the flow of traffic.

We live in a society where clothing is normal in large part because of climate. So our sense of what is private about our bodies is different than it would be if we lived in the Amazon jungle. It shapes our sexual response and our feelings of vulnerability, of dignity.

Our environment has driven culture in this. That's ok and actually, it's true everywhere.

Yes agreed.

Different modes of dress and how much coverage in what circs are societal, varying around the world and over time, and still different around the world.

Along with practical considerations as you mentioned eg climate.

All fine.

I don't understand how differing norms maps to sex offences though? From the creepy to the extreme. The dynamic being overwhelming males doing the things to women and girls. And boys. And men.

?

Has OP been back? Earlier I don't think had.

Another thread where. OP why is this a problem? What about blah. And never comes back to engage with comments or make their case.

And leaves mainly women to think and post and discuss. Etc. Consider.

And every time. Take that effort to reply to an OP who just wanted to do. Whatever. And we all go back and forth considering responses to OPs like.

Why on earth do we feel extremely uncomfortable being naked in front of male strangers. How can we change this.

I mean. For crying out loud.

'We live in a society where clothing is normal in large part because of climate. So our sense of what is private about our bodies is different than it would be if we lived in the Amazon jungle. It shapes our sexual response and our feelings of vulnerability, of dignity.'

The level of coverage for women and girls. Is often/ usually decided by men though. Religious men, capitalist men, men in power etc etc. When we fight against what we are supposed to wear it can take ages to get any change. And it is easily reversed.

Cartoon about France swimwear law. Religious Muslim man one side. Woman in middle. Man other side is... Standard man in France/ govt.

One man covers her with burqa. Other pulls it off underwear. Back and forth.

Impactful way to make the point.

Is it, usually?

Overall, societies where women wear very little, men also tend to wear very little. The ones where women wear a lot, men also tend to wear a lot.

There are some cultures where women are hidden in some way, be it clothing or by restricting their movement to the home. But that's not really most societies. And then in a few like ours there is the desire to make women available to look at as sexual objects which does seem to be very tied to consumerism. But that isn't most societies either.

Clothing has in the past been very labour intensive and expensive to make, so it's often been very practical for the vast majority of people, and often male and female clothing has been very similar in basic form because it's what does the job and can be made efficiently.

I think there is always capacity in males for sex offences, that is true in many mammals. But sexual response is in part learned, so what triggers it isn't going to be the same everywhere. And what is perceived as a sexual signal won't be the same everywhere. So those map on to norms.

As long as women and men are together there's always the possibility of sexual frisson. It's inconvenient to those who want us to have a sort of sexless civil society, but it's the truth whether we like it or not. There are ways to keep that somewhat under wrap through social norms too. But when people are doing things like undressing in a society where nudity is more private, the only way to totally desexualise that is to have sex segregation.

A couple points towards the end I really don't agree with-

'And what is perceived as a sexual signal won't be the same everywhere. So those map on to norms.''

This is about single sex spaces. A major reason for women and girls to have them in certain circs is because of the fact that there are a good amount of creepy/ pervy/ predatory men about and most are interested in women and girls.

Sexual signals? Dodgy men aren't interested in 'signals'. Although plenty like to think that eg a schoolgirl with a rolled up skirt is loudly broadcasting come and get me, to any and all men in the area...

'As long as women and men are together there's always the possibility of sexual frisson. '

This is about single sex spaces. To make the point- 14 yo girl getting changed for swimming in a mixed sex area and all other occupants are male. Range of ages. I imagine there would be a certain amount of sexual 'frisson' but in a specific way...

Additionally see post about Finland. Home sauna with family. Sisters uncles grandma in laws etc. Mixed nudity does not inevitably = sexual 'frisson'.

'It's inconvenient to those who want us to have a sort of sexless civil society, but it's the truth whether we like it or not. '

Who wants that? People in the UK have plenty of sex! There are plenty of ways to pull without going to s place with naked men and taking all your clothes off

'There are ways to keep that somewhat under wrap through social norms too. But when people are doing things like undressing in a society where nudity is more private, the only way to totally desexualise that is to have sex segregation.'

Hmmm. Just thinking. Plenty gay clubs (or used to be) where it was pretty... Full on. Hardly dressed/ naked. Sex acts just around the place etc.

Surely it's not the nudity itself but the context?

And the fact is male behaviour like voyeurism, indecent exposure, and so on. It's one sided isn't it. I can't imagine many women would put a camera in a bog to get footage of men having a shit. Because they find that sexually exciting.

This equation is not equal.

Single sex spaces protect women and girls. It can be argued back and forth about the cultural stuff etc.

In the end though. Globally women and girls are the target of iffy/ awful sex related behaviour. So. We need our spaces in certain circs.

Apologies Nice gerbil - I was actually waiting to read responses plus i'm in a different time zone - next time i'll get up in the middle of the night to reply to your comments
it was more lobsterNapkin's points re how much is cultural v how much is nature that i was interested in.
I don't really think its the assault risk- there is something culturally seen as shameful in being naked in front of the other sex which starts really early on- with the shame attaching to the person who is seen naked not the one seeing them. I think for girls there is a sense of needing to cover up in front of everyone .
This really wasn't about the Trans discussion - not everything is

The risk of men doing creepy stuff and worse is surely the whole point though.

Neither men nor women in the UK want to have mixed.

Most men are not horrible and would find it v embarrassing.

And it's recognised as a risk by multiple orgs including major global ones.

Eg

'Refugee camps tend to have too few bathrooms, which are often mixed and unprotected, making them hotspots for sexual attacks on women and girls. While there are no hard statistics, reported cases include German guards at a reception center peeping at women in the bathrooms and attempted rapes at bathrooms along the refugee trail.'

qz.com/692711/the-radically-simple-way-to-make-female-refugees-safer-from-sexual-assault-decent-bathrooms/

That was near top. Loads of hits including amnesty etc.

This is why women and girls need single sex things.

Your OP asked why single sex. This is why.

Comfort with mixed sex nudity is a totally different topic. And not the reason for men being creepy etc in enough numbers to mean women and girls from say 12 up have generally experienced it often multiple times.

The risk of men doing creepy stuff and worse is surely the whole point though.
Not really- its one of the reasons but not the starting point.
I ve actually read a legal paper about it now saying the starting point isn't known - it talks about three reasons A. The Interest in Accommodating Biological Differences...B. The Interest in Protecting Privacy......C. The Interest in Protecting Women's Safety ..
The privacy one is interesting as it talks about the nudity taboo "there is no more basic subject of privacy than the naked
body. The desire to shield one's unclothed figure[] from view of strangers, and particularly strangers of the opposite sex, is impelled by elementary self-respect and personal dignity" I was just trying to understand why it exists

It’s the Chesterton’s Fence argument. Don’t remove safety barriers before you understand why they were put up in the first place.

Instead of asking women to defend their reasons for wanting single sex spaces, we should ask why men are so keen to invade them.

I would feel uncomfortable being naked in front of any adult male except my partner. Irrespective of their age and sexuality.

Because I know I can't tell the difference between predators and non predators. So I react as if they are all predators.

Unfortunately I've met multiple predators and know that they wear masks of innocence.

I won't share with males in enclosed spaces when in a vulnerable state of undress because I feel unsafe.

I don't want to be 'cured' of feeling unsafe because unfortunately I know for a fact that in some of those occasions I am unsafe.

In societies where there are no safe separate facilities for women, women get raped and assaulted in much higher numbers than they do here. I support charities that provide safe lavatories and washing facilities and the evidence is that it makes it safer for women.

All this stuff about clothing and beaches and culture seems to me to derail the thread. All over the world cultures divide facilities that involve nakedness and vulnerability by sex once they are developed enough to offer public facilities. Even Scandi countries: I speak as a woman who caused outrage in a Finnish sauna by assuming that we would be naked. The beach culture of bikinis is highly sexualised and huge numbers of people aren't comfortable with it and don't participate in it. Many of us will have had horrible experiences of being eyed up by every passing man in Speedos.

I absolutely agree with cuck00soup: stop wondering why single-sex facilities exist and focus on why so many men are so anxious to breach women's boundaries.

@DorsVenabili

The risk of men doing creepy stuff and worse is surely the whole point though. Not really- its one of the reasons but not the starting point. I ve actually read a legal paper about it now saying the starting point isn't known - it talks about three reasons A. The Interest in Accommodating Biological Differences...B. The Interest in Protecting Privacy......C. The Interest in Protecting Women's Safety .. The privacy one is interesting as it talks about the nudity taboo "there is no more basic subject of privacy than the naked body. The desire to shield one's unclothed figure[] from view of strangers, and particularly strangers of the opposite sex, is impelled by elementary self-respect and personal dignity" I was just trying to understand why it exists

Op- What legal paper? Written in such country? About what legal point/issue.

Be interested to read. Without that and what the arguments contrained are, little point in discussing.

What about the orgs charities etc campaigning for decent female facilities in various situations for the safety of women and girls?

I think I posted a link earlier. Can post again and more if needed.

It's got nothing to do with prudishness etc and everything to do with rape, sexual assault, voyeurism, intimidation etc from men.

Clothing has a load of reasons for being worn, and a lot of variation.

The norms change over time with a variety of drivers.

Climate
Practicality
Comfort
Fashion
Religion
Culture
Rules from those in power
To show status

To argue that we don't go around naked because of 'elementary self respect and dignity' is a very strange statement.

Even when you see pics from the past etc of people in warmer climes they as far as I can remember have their genitals covered in some way. To reduce possibity of accidental hurty things happening.

Humans have no innate sense of dignity, why would we? We are animals. Mammals. We adopted clothes not because we felt 'undignified' however many 10s of thousands of years ago! And self respect?! Bizarre. Sounds like something a v religious person, or a stern Victorian would think!

I really don't think that if everyone went around naked all the time, the prevalence of sex offences would go through the floor.

I have seen it argued before - and almost always using women and girls as the focus.

That if only we would stop hiding our bodies away, men and boys wouldn't do lots of this stuff because they could see our bodies anyway.

The suggestion I've seen elsewhere is that essentially we do it and the men and boys will lose a load of pervy behaviour. Timescales while we are naked and before men stop have never been given.

And if it's about nudity. Then why the interest in filming us pissing and crapping? Do we need to do that in public as well? And I can't see how it relates to sexual assault, indecent exposure, enjoying making us feel threatened/ uncomfortable etc.

Tbh I would be ok in a nudist place. Not included to rush out and book one. They have certain norms they stick to. I think many don't accept single men, maybe other stuff. Pretty sure zero tolerance for dodgy behaviour (at least the ones I've read about do this stuff).

Point is that those there do not do it for sexual reasons. Going to leer is not what's going on.

In the wider world? Hahahaha.

There's also the point that sexual abuse would be easier, much easier. Like the gymnastics coach who could access girls bodies inappropriatly even while others there, do to incredibly skimpy leotard and it's his job to touch their bodies wherever he 'needs' to 'correct' posture or something.

Note generally-

Before, some, and loads after WiSpa. People arguing that a penis is just a bit of skin. Prudishness is a bad thing. The uptight view of nudity is bad. Pointless. It should be normal for everyone irrespective of sex age etc to be around each other naked.

Each time something happens a new argument comes out...