To Feel Really Saddened That DD's School can't say Daughter or Girl

[Memeapple]

I went to a my DD's high performing Central London Girls school last night for an introduction to year 8 where they mainly talked about attendance.

We then had a talk by the form tutor in the classroom. I noticed that during the entire form tutor chat she was referring to the girls as children. This wasn't an accident because at one point she nearly said daughters but stopped herself. I've noticed my daughter talking about the girls in her class as "people". I've also seen her gender PHSE work from year 7 which says if you misgender someone it is an act of violence. Hmm what about obliteration of gender?

I am profoundly dismayed by this and feel that the school is complicit in the stripping of girls/women's identities. How can "inclusivity" mean that the females have no identity whatsoever?

Am finding this whole situation really really disconcerting. Something nefarious has penetrated the school system. How can fundamental biological/physiological fact be washed away by "lived experience".

I have always loathed the gendering of groups (‘come along girls!) and babies (good girl/good boy).
It adds nothing. The girlness of the group or baby isn’t the point. I’ve always tried to avoid it, as it has always set my teeth on edge.

There's tremendous inconsistency and hypocrisy at work, here. The school wants to toe the line when it comes to terminology... but their actions don't appear to support the idea that they "really" believe trans women are women and trans men are men (etc.). Because surely if they did, students who come out as transgender should leave?

Because nobody really thinks that any child's education should be sabotaged over this identity make-believe. Neither parents, nor educators, expecially if the school is fee paying. There is, however, big fears over discrimination lawsuits is a girl, who doesn't feel like a girl, is made feel uncomfortable.

I am not just 'looking at their anatomy for medical reasons' I am evaluating and planning for health interventions. So it is not helpful or advisable to remove the language that tells me who they are, who I need to reach. Removing M/F to support someone's comfort with their gender expression would mean I can not do my job. It is not transphobic to want clear, defined language to denote a persons sex. It is necessary and it is dangerous to remove it.

I can't self identify as a British Pakistani because I like/feel the identity that goes with being a British Pakistani. I would be an absolute fool to want to remove that ethnicity from a demographics list to protect my feelings, because I can't be British Pakistani. Imagine if I asked that all people with the ethnicity 'British Pakistani' use just 'British' to define their ethnicity, because I didn't feel included? That would mean British Pakistani people being removed from planning, policy and law. It would erase them. That is not fair or right. This is the crux of what the OP is saying. Calling people transphobes and narrow minded because they are thinking through a very plausible and real worry is...narrow minded.

So luna. Are you in education for young people?

Well, it's better than 'bodies with vaginas'.

YANBU OP.

No one is stripping you daughter's identify. The tutor is referring to a group...the majority of which identify as girls and some not. The tutor was being inclusive. Your daughter can be called whatever she wants as an individual. No harm is being done here. Girls are people after all.

*identity

There is, however, big fears over discrimination lawsuits is a girl, who doesn't feel like a girl, is made feel uncomfortable

Then we can end up with situations like this

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/abc6onyourside.com/amp/news/nation-world/teachers-refusal-to-supervise-transgender-student-in-locker-room-sparks-debate

Actually, while I don't feel inclined to be kind enough to want adult persons with dicks changing next to me and my daughter in the swimming pool etc., I am very inclined to feel kind to a young teenager coming to terms with their identity, which I think is what it's about.

Kind enough to call a class "children" rather than "boys or girls".

And I think that, for the gender-uncertain, if the choice was between the boys school or the girls' school, the ones with penises should be in the boys' school and the ones with vaginas should be in the girls' school.

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Well, it's better than 'bodies with vaginas'.

YANBU OP.

I read that initially as Boden with vaginas. That would be very mumsnet

This is ridiculous and wrong. I went to a girls' school and a line from the school song went "we become the kind of women that the world has needed long". I will never forget that, it had a powerful effect on me. I imagined myself from a very early age as that woman, not that "person". That woman was, and still is, the identity I strive for.

@FangsForTheMemory

Oh give the anti-trans stuff a rest!

Thank you!

Actually, while I don't feel inclined to be kind enough to want adult persons with dicks changing next to me and my daughter in the swimming pool etc., I am very inclined to feel kind to a young teenager coming to terms with their identity, which I think is what it's about

Girls are also coming to terms with who they are in an unequal and patriarchal world. Give them identity and dignity by referring to them as girls - and remind them they can be proud as girls.

Not a single person is forcing you to stop referring to yourself as a female/women if that's what you want. Same goes for males/men. You're simply being asked to refer to other people as they wish to be referred to.

Nonsense. Individuals might be permitted, but they can never declare themselves that as a group. Because that would be "exclusionary".

Activists with a particular cause are having veto rights over a group being able to name themselves and campaign for their rights.

There's no winning position. If they say "women", it's "what about women who don't like being called women, and you have to include men who do like being called women. If they say "female", it's "why are you obsessed with genitals" or "transphobic dog whistles."

Very progressive. Much intersectionality.

A group of feminists at Bristol Uni are currently in a legal challenge with the student union about whether they're allowed to have women-only meetings.

But no-one's forcing anything, no. No problem.

@Luna2021 You're simply being asked to refer to other people as they wish to be referred to. Pretty simple. Read this. And then tell us why it only applies in the direction you want it to.

Maybe in some circumstances such as learning and working it is more helpful to refer to ourselves as people, rather than females? Maybe sometimes it could be unhelpful to keep reminding us of our gender or sex?

TalkingintheDark Tue 05-Jan-21 14:05:10
There have been studies done that show that women themselves, when reminded beforehand that they are female, perform less well on tests in traditionally male dominated areas than they do if they are not reminded.

EndemicPanda Wed 06-Jan-21 01:03:36
Just reminding us that we are women seems to bring up all the negative crap that we have been exposed to in our lives about women's abilities etc., even if it is meant to be done in a positive way.

Our daughters are being educated not to be women. It's really very seismic. Most of us grew up very secure with our sex/gender. We don't know how this experiment will end.

@Yoursaintlyglowofconcern

Maybe in some circumstances such as learning and working it is more helpful to refer to ourselves as people, rather than females? Maybe sometimes it could be unhelpful to keep reminding us of our gender or sex?

TalkingintheDark Tue 05-Jan-21 14:05:10
There have been studies done that show that women themselves, when reminded beforehand that they are female, perform less well on tests in traditionally male dominated areas than they do if they are not reminded.

EndemicPanda Wed 06-Jan-21 01:03:36
Just reminding us that we are women seems to bring up all the negative crap that we have been exposed to in our lives about women's abilities etc., even if it is meant to be done in a positive way.

Fair enough but there has been an explosion of gender dysphoria in young girls and that can lead to breast binding and hormone taking. You got to ask what's driving it?

'You're simply being asked to refer to other people as they wish to be referred to.' - thats just not true, is it?
Whats wrong with 'daughter' all of a sudden?

@OneTC

If the TRAs are so convinced TWAW

Because it's girls identifying as boys?

But then surely they wouldn’t be at a school for girls only?

Our daughters are being educated not to be women. It's really very seismic. Most of us grew up very secure with our sex/gender. We don't know how this experiment will end.

This!
There can't be no more women's right or freedom for women, if we are just "bodies" or some sort of sexless "persons" and womanhood is just a feeling in a man's head.

Fair enough but there has been an explosion of gender dysphoria in young girls and that can lead to breast binding and hormone taking. You got to ask what's driving it?

There was supoosed to he and enquiry into the 4000 percent increase in girls presenting at gender clinics.

But it never happened. And jts all just a young people/children issue and the 75/25 sex split flip is if course not noticed.

Remind me again why erasing sex isn't a problem?

Happy for gender to be erased. Prefer my 2 sons and 2 daughters to just be treated as people and not as boys or girls.

I hate this kind of thing - but if only there were a specific board on MN to discuss it....