To Feel Really Saddened That DD's School can't say Daughter or Girl

[Memeapple]

I went to a my DD's high performing Central London Girls school last night for an introduction to year 8 where they mainly talked about attendance.

We then had a talk by the form tutor in the classroom. I noticed that during the entire form tutor chat she was referring to the girls as children. This wasn't an accident because at one point she nearly said daughters but stopped herself. I've noticed my daughter talking about the girls in her class as "people". I've also seen her gender PHSE work from year 7 which says if you misgender someone it is an act of violence. Hmm what about obliteration of gender?

I am profoundly dismayed by this and feel that the school is complicit in the stripping of girls/women's identities. How can "inclusivity" mean that the females have no identity whatsoever?

Am finding this whole situation really really disconcerting. Something nefarious has penetrated the school system. How can fundamental biological/physiological fact be washed away by "lived experience".

@DillonPanthersTexas

I went to a my DD's high performing Central London Girls school last night

Quality stealth brag there OP.

😂

I think you (like most posters on here) just want to argue instead of opening up your mind even just a little bit.

Oh the irony.

What is the benefit of redefining the words woman, girl and female to mean adult human of either sex, child human of either sex and lego body parts?

What use is it to tell people who are speaking out against the changing of definitions and language used that 'it will happen whether you like it or not'. How does that not mean shut up and stop asking questions?

I feel like the borg has come for us: resistance is futile....

It's interesting that this issue doesn't crop up nearly as much with trans men trying to eradicate the use of male leaning language.

Clearly sexist dynamics in force. Men don't (and aren't expected) to put up with that sort of demand from women.

Women telling men not to call themselves men is laughable. And men wouldn't dream of telling another man to do what a woman says.

But men can pressure women into not calling themselves women, and even women will pressure each other for not acceding to that male demand.

@Memeapple

Just had a look at the school's website. No mention of girls at all!! Lots of photos of girls but not one mention apart from......the admissions criteria where it says it only takes girls.

What a bonkers world we're in where a school acts like girls exist in one sense and denies their existence in another.

They say Daughter's Birth Certificate in Admissions . Mostly it is students but there is also this " This yearly tournament is entirely organised and run by our students, who hope to share their love of debating and to attract more girls to their favourite […]"

Id raise it with the school and start searching for another one op, if that’s even remotely an option.

I see your point, but in this instance you are looking purely at their anatomy for medical reasons, not their gender expression

There are thousands of genetic differences between men and women medical care deals with every single one of them.

Women aren't just men with their bits removed fgs

Gender expression is irrelevant to anyone but the person involved.

If someone's wellbeing relies purely on others going along with it then thats an incredibly shaky ground to base your identity and well being on.

Inadvisable I'd say.

Sorry - I only said high performing in order to say that it wasn't badly run. It's not a fee paying school.

@Whatwouldscullydo

I see your point, but in this instance you are looking purely at their anatomy for medical reasons, not their gender expression

There are thousands of genetic differences between men and women medical care deals with every single one of them.

Women aren't just men with their bits removed fgs

Gender expression is irrelevant to anyone but the person involved.

If someone's wellbeing relies purely on others going along with it then thats an incredibly shaky ground to base your identity and well being on.

Inadvisable I'd say.

Well said .

I like this quote from the excellent With Women.

Biological sex is the most inclusive category of all women across all nationalities, cultures and throughout human history.

with-woman.org/2021/09/21/mothers-they-matter-however-they-identify-heres-why/

with-woman.org/2021/07/11/and-pregnant-people-nope-nope-and-all-the-nopity-nope/

@WorkingItOutAsIGo

I think what underlines you feelings is that we have gone from a world where women were excluded and ignored, to one where they were seen as equal participants and we were striving for equality, to ones where our very identities are erased, have become the unsayable. It’s as erasing for women as they being excluded was. It reeks of it being somehow shameful to be a woman. It takes us back to the dark ages as the shameful, unnameable, erases, excluded, unequal members of society.

How can your DD and her friends learn to be proud of who they are if they cannot be named?

How can we tackle sexism and all the resultant harm to women if we cannot name sex?

Reckon WorkingItOutAsIGo 's excellent post bears repeating.

Unbelievable that we have to fight to retain the language that can accurately describe the sex based oppression of women.

It's not transphobic to want to have your rights as a woman to be upheld.

And the Chairperson of the EHRC has issued a statement to this affect.

Perhaps pp's, who may or may not have done a wide range of reading from all perspectives on this topic, missed that statement.

It was clearly stated that women discussing how they are impacted by trans rights claims is not transphobic.

Of course..... if standing up for the rights of women and girls* is 'anti-trans' then is standing up for 'trans rights' anti-women-and-girls?

(*In this instance using language, we as women, choose to use to describe ourselves)

Why do you want the school to silence and erase step- parents, partners of parents and other family members of the students?

Wow, you lot are on fire. Not a single person is forcing you to stop referring to yourself as a female/women if that's what you want. Same goes for males/men. You're simply being asked to refer to other people as they wish to be referred to. Pretty simple.

Language changes a little to be more inclusive and suddenly some folk want to scream that their rights are being away. Classic example of privileged people mistaking a slight inconvenience as some form of opression. You're the equivilent of those those (white) protesters in the US arguing that wearing a mask is a form of slavery...

No one cares if someone born with a vagina wants to live as someone as if they were born with a penis but stop trying to deny girls born female wanting to stay that way, live their lives and be acknowledged as female.

Women aren't just men with their bits removed fgs

Remember Scully, that English Rugby has defined women as 'non-male'. That women were people who had not experienced a testosterone puberty. I wonder what Luna2021 and others supporting the removal of women and girls, from communication meant for women and girls, thinks of that use of 'neutral' language?

I wait to see it downplayed as another 'one off' while the world settles into its gender neutral communication style. Because, using humanising language doesn't matter anymore.

@Whatwouldscullydo

I see your point, but in this instance you are looking purely at their anatomy for medical reasons, not their gender expression

There are thousands of genetic differences between men and women medical care deals with every single one of them.

Women aren't just men with their bits removed fgs

Gender expression is irrelevant to anyone but the person involved.

If someone's wellbeing relies purely on others going along with it then thats an incredibly shaky ground to base your identity and well being on.

Inadvisable I'd say.

And perhaps a sign of mental instability? If I started insisting everyone call a "chair" a "table" my sanity might be questioned. Except for proper nouns the way language evolves is by consensus and not by force and it's certainly not subjective otherwise we lose meaning.

It feels like subjective post modernism has triumphed over reason and science. Time for an empiricist revolution

Oh dear... we are like racists now.

Can I call bingo yet?

YANBU, OP. I've really had enough of this crap. It's so OBVIOUS that it's only women and girls that are told to move up, shut up, stop saying their names/words. Do you think this happens in boys' schools? Does it fuck.

@Luna2021

Wow, you lot are on fire. Not a single person is forcing you to stop referring to yourself as a female/women if that's what you want. Same goes for males/men. You're simply being asked to refer to other people as they wish to be referred to. Pretty simple.

Language changes a little to be more inclusive and suddenly some folk want to scream that their rights are being away. Classic example of privileged people mistaking a slight inconvenience as some form of opression. You're the equivilent of those those (white) protesters in the US arguing that wearing a mask is a form of slavery...

Except for the teacher who is not to refer to girls as girls.

Try reading again, slowly.

You're simply being asked to refer to other people as they wish to be referred to.

No. We aren't.

Otherwise, it may have been settled to use additive language. 'Women and... '

That is not what is happening.

Language changes a little to be more inclusive and suddenly some folk want to scream that their rights are being away

Language is meant to be exclusive. Because otherwise if words can include anything other other its specific meaning then communication is impossible.

The word door for example excludes everything but a door . If door was made " inclusive " and included things that weren't doors then when someone asks you to answer the door, you wouldn't have a clue what they meant.

Re transmen

I think men wouldn't stand for being told they only had personhood by biological women trying to transition.

re boys' schools

Our senior school says boys sometimes and children sometimes.

They do have girls in the 6th form and they say sons and daughters then.

I think they tailor it whether there are any girls or questioning-of-gender-identity persons in the year or years indicated.

I suspect it is done quite sensitively with an eye to the children's feelings, which is quite impressive given that it is a rather proudly old-fashioned (state) school.

What a surprise that the "you're just like racists" argument turns up.

Have you actually got an argument or do you just want everyone to be kind?

And as for calling everyone privileged, I think you're pretty damn privileged to argue "be kind" while being on the side of people that lobby to allow fully intact male rapists in women's prisons.

@Luna2021

Wow, you lot are on fire. Not a single person is forcing you to stop referring to yourself as a female/women if that's what you want. Same goes for males/men. You're simply being asked to refer to other people as they wish to be referred to. Pretty simple.

Language changes a little to be more inclusive and suddenly some folk want to scream that their rights are being away. Classic example of privileged people mistaking a slight inconvenience as some form of opression. You're the equivilent of those those (white) protesters in the US arguing that wearing a mask is a form of slavery...

Sorry, are you actually saying that women as a sex group are not oppressed? And that women are more privileged than trans women - who have been born with and spent their lives benefiting from male privilege?