To Feel Really Saddened That DD's School can't say Daughter or Girl

[Memeapple]

I went to a my DD's high performing Central London Girls school last night for an introduction to year 8 where they mainly talked about attendance.

We then had a talk by the form tutor in the classroom. I noticed that during the entire form tutor chat she was referring to the girls as children. This wasn't an accident because at one point she nearly said daughters but stopped herself. I've noticed my daughter talking about the girls in her class as "people". I've also seen her gender PHSE work from year 7 which says if you misgender someone it is an act of violence. Hmm what about obliteration of gender?

I am profoundly dismayed by this and feel that the school is complicit in the stripping of girls/women's identities. How can "inclusivity" mean that the females have no identity whatsoever?

Am finding this whole situation really really disconcerting. Something nefarious has penetrated the school system. How can fundamental biological/physiological fact be washed away by "lived experience".

@Luna2021

And here we go with the transphobic comments...

I really don't understand why people think that being more gender neutral somehow erases women. Just one of the many excuses to hide your transphobia behind.

It's not a big deal and clearly you all have far too much time on your hands to be so concerned and worried about people being referred to as people instead of split into M/F categories. Get a life.

It is very telling that the first post here as well as yours is saying that someone who is objecting to girls losing the word 'girls', is anti trans. It is so clear you view pro female as anti trans. Why is there an all girls school? There is a reason there. Why then stop using the language around the reason you are an all girls school? Makes no sense.

And for all these 'you are anti trans' posters: women and girls are more than just humans, just like men are more than just humans. Women are not men and are also not non-men and certainly are not a collection of body parts. Think for a minute why you feel women should be FORCED by men to stop using the word woman for themselves, that one word that makes them unique from men and something men don't need to do.

@Helleofabore

I really don't understand why people think that being more gender neutral somehow erases women.

You are then happy to be referred to as a 'body with a vagina' or a 'body with a penis' then. You are happy with the term 'birthing bodies', even when referring to black women?

Because these are the current batch of 'gender neutral' terms being used.

I am very happy to be referred to as a person. Because that's what I am.

As people start using gender neutral terms they might not always get it right (i.e your examples above) but ultimately, language changes and evolves and it'll happen whether you like it or not. One GN term might work for one person but not another. Not everything needs to be split by M/F, this excludes people who have always existed.

One day future generations will look back and be amazing at how narrow minded the majority of people were on this.

@astoundedgoat

I've also seen her gender PHSE work from year 7 which says if you misgender someone it is an act of violence

Did the SCHOOL say it was an act of violence, or did your daughter say this in her homework?

It was in a video they were shown as part of the lesson.

@Luna2021 8 hours a day I kind of need to know if patients are split into M/F categories so I can plan, research and evaluate health interventions effectively. Your point that this is nonsense and I should get a life, that we don't need to focus on it, is a bit puzzling when some of us have to write and work with this data. Come on, think outside your world a bit.

You don't get to dictate to women that they aren't allowed to call themselves women. It's sexist.

One day future generations will look back and be disgusted and aghast at the attempts to erase women's identity. Positively Taleban-esque.

I would address it with the school.
I have a 14 year old girl, she and most of her friends are bemused by the ridiculousness of the situation. there's dozens of "identifying as a boy" girls in her school. (they don't want to use the boys loo or changing rooms though.)
Several of them want to be referred to as they, not she. It's crazy odd.

An entire group ( half the population) has to change everything to accommodate a tiny minority of people.
Time we fought back! Fight for your own rights, stop eroding ours.

It was in a video they were shown as part of the lesson

I hope to god this wasn't the now withdrawn cps guidence that also told them that questioning a male in their or space was a hate crime also.

The world has gone mad.

So taken to its logical conclusion.....your daughter would not be at an all girls' school....it would be a school for children with vulvas. It is just crazy.

Does this mean that once a girl identifies as non binary or male she then has to leave and attend a different school??

Seriously...I worry for the times we are in.

If people identify as trans....no problem with that. But do not erase female identity or that is a v dangerous route to go down

@sanluca

"It is so clear you view pro female as anti trans."

Huh?! Not at what I'm saying, don't be ridiculous.

"And for all these 'you are anti trans' posters: women and girls are more than just humans, just like men are more than just humans. Women are not men and are also not non-men and certainly are not a collection of body parts. Think for a minute why you feel women should be FORCED by men to stop using the word woman for themselves, that one word that makes them unique from men and something men don't need to do."

Again, huh?! No one is forcing anyone to do anything. If you want to be referred to as a M or F that's fine, ask people to do that but generally, that's the default anyway. Have you even considered what it's like for people who don't fall neatly into one of these two categories? And if you're going to start with the "genitals = someones gender identity" then I'm sorry but, you are 100% transphobic.

Also, stop being so obsessed with people's genitals, it's weird.

it'll happen whether you like it or not.

Always so telling. Women, stop protesting, we will take away your rights whether you like it or not.

Did you know research last year produced by the UN says 90% of men and women are biased against women? So how are you going to tackle this if you hide it all in gender neutral packaging?

@Luna2021

And here we go with the transphobic comments...

I really don't understand why people think that being more gender neutral somehow erases women. Just one of the many excuses to hide your transphobia behind.

It's not a big deal and clearly you all have far too much time on your hands to be so concerned and worried about people being referred to as people instead of split into M/F categories. Get a life.

It's not transphobic to want to have your rights as a woman to be upheld.

It is a big deal and it is very much as valid as transpeople advocating for gender neutral ? Why do they want gender neutral when they want to act and look like a woman ?

Again, huh?! No one is forcing anyone to do anything. If you want to be referred to as a M or F that's fine, ask people to do that but generally, that's the default anyway. Have you even considered what it's like for people who don't fall neatly into one of these two categories? And if you're going to start with the "genitals = someones gender identity" then I'm sorry but, you are 100% transphobic

If male and female don't really exist then what are people even transitioning to or from?

The binary exists only to define yourself against it?

[quote SafeMove]@Luna2021 8 hours a day I kind of need to know if patients are split into M/F categories so I can plan, research and evaluate health interventions effectively. Your point that this is nonsense and I should get a life, that we don't need to focus on it, is a bit puzzling when some of us have to write and work with this data. Come on, think outside your world a bit.[/quote]
I see your point, but in this instance you are looking purely at their anatomy for medical reasons, not their gender expression.

Respecting someone's gender expressions costs absolutely nothing.

*And if you're going to start with the "genitals = someones gender identity" then I'm sorry but, you are 100% transphobic.

Also, stop being so obsessed with people's genitals, it's weird.*

Oh give it a rest. Genitals are excellent indicators of someone's SEX and I don't give a toss about someone's gender.

Our laws, the definition of woman, girls and female are based on sex. Changing rooms, prisons, healthcare, sports are separated by sex. So it is very important the definition of woman, girl and female stays meaning a sex as otherwise all those things meant for female humans are gone.

I’ve just googled St. Paul’s girls school gender protocol (because has.girl in its very name). It’s very interesting and inclusive and open ended. but makes it clear that while supporting students as they seek to work out their identity, the student body will still be referred to as girls. Worth a Google. I wonder if your school has a similar policy you can request?

I wonder what’s happening in boys schools. I wouldn’t like it either. I have daughters and they are girls until they tell me otherwise

@sanluca

it'll happen whether you like it or not.

Always so telling. Women, stop protesting, we will take away your rights whether you like it or not.

Did you know research last year produced by the UN says 90% of men and women are biased against women? So how are you going to tackle this if you hide it all in gender neutral packaging?

Once again, what?! Not in the slightest bit close to what I'm saying.

I think you (like most posters on here) just want to argue instead of opening up your mind even just a little bit.

One day future generations will look back and be amazing at how narrow minded the majority of people were on this.

Strangely, I have always tended to use neutral language in the past when appropriate. For decades. However, use of terminology such as 'body with a vagina' or a 'body with a penis' or 'birthing bodies' or 'gestational carriers' is not 'neutral' language.

And to state that removing the sexed aspects of our language is inclusive in communication is false. Because using terms such as menstruators or even people who menstruate is failing to communicate to the majority of the people who need that information. (for instance people with poor learning skills or young girls who have not been told by anyone yet that they must understand that they are menstruators)

Using women and girls, transmen and non binary people (and by all means add a body function or part it that group wishes it) will get the message across to the majority of people. So, why are we removing the words that will convey the message.

By the way, I have watched transwomen discuss just how much they hate being referred to as 'people with penises'. And this week a transman state they are not a 'body with a vagina' they are just a man. So, whoever is pushing this 'neutral only' agenda is not pleasing many people it seems.

It seems that some groups and allies have decided that making everything neutral all the time is the only way forward.

It really is not.

Respecting someone's gender expressions costs absolutely nothing.

Denying people's sex costs women a lot.

Just had a look at the school's website. No mention of girls at all!! Lots of photos of girls but not one mention apart from......the admissions criteria where it says it only takes girls.

What a bonkers world we're in where a school acts like girls exist in one sense and denies their existence in another.

Also, stop being so obsessed with people's genitals, it's weird.

The irony.....

So, it would be great to not be forced to accept language that reduces people to their genitals. Don't you think?

Don't get sad, get angry.

Will you be raising it with the school?

@NecessaryScene

Respecting someone's gender expressions costs absolutely nothing.

Denying people's sex costs women a lot.

yes. Indeed it does.

@TheFairPrincess

This is all very strange to me.

I'm pro trans identity. But it's so confusing that the word men is always fine, it's only ever the female words that are being replaced with more inclusive terms.

That in itself is indicative of something less innocent than inclusion.

And yes, I agree I don't understand what the issue is with using men and women, boys and girls. Isn't the whole point of being trans not wanting to be othered and to be included under the umbrella of one's chosen gender correlating with a binary sex?

I just don't really get it.

This is exactly what I was thinking but couldn't articulate.

It's interesting that this issue doesn't crop up nearly as much with trans men trying to eradicate the use of male leaning language.

Maybe people want to argue with you because you burst in and shout "transphobe" at everyone?

You could have an actual discussion or you can rant and rave about everyone on MN being transphobic. Which do you think wins over an audience?

Oh, and of course we've got to get in something about being obsessed with genitals. You tell me, who is calling women and girls "bodies with vaginas"? It's certainly not the "transphobes".

Being called transphobic means absolutely nothing now, everything is transphobic according to some.