To Feel Really Saddened That DD's School can't say Daughter or Girl

[Memeapple]

I went to a my DD's high performing Central London Girls school last night for an introduction to year 8 where they mainly talked about attendance.

We then had a talk by the form tutor in the classroom. I noticed that during the entire form tutor chat she was referring to the girls as children. This wasn't an accident because at one point she nearly said daughters but stopped herself. I've noticed my daughter talking about the girls in her class as "people". I've also seen her gender PHSE work from year 7 which says if you misgender someone it is an act of violence. Hmm what about obliteration of gender?

I am profoundly dismayed by this and feel that the school is complicit in the stripping of girls/women's identities. How can "inclusivity" mean that the females have no identity whatsoever?

Am finding this whole situation really really disconcerting. Something nefarious has penetrated the school system. How can fundamental biological/physiological fact be washed away by "lived experience".

Strike through fail!

@Innocenta

There's tremendous inconsistency and hypocrisy at work, here. The school wants to toe the line when it comes to terminology... but their actions don't appear to support the idea that they "really" believe trans women are women and trans men are men (etc.). Because surely if they did, students who come out as transgender should leave?

That is the logical conclusion of the ideological stance their language use is implying they hold. But I don't see any of these top London girls' schools ejecting pupils who now identify as boys. Why do these pupils even want to stay at such schools? Surely a comprehensive would be better and more affirming, since it would not be, by definition, a girls' school?

This

Well, ancientgran could start a thread on it if desired….

Go read Stonewalls tweets about removing the M and F identifiers from medical records and you will realise we have a much bigger issue on our hands.

Somebody asked are you saying to be inclusive we need to remove the sex from healthcare records, therefore we would have to invite everyone for a smear/prostate exam, even if they don't have a cervix or a prostate? No reply.

Sex is binary. Women and men exist. It is a fact. You can not self ID your way into having a cervix, a uterus, prostate or testes. No matter how much you want that. If we erase the linguistic indicator for female relations - mother, grandmother, daughter, girl, woman you are going to find society will suffer in many more ways than you realise. This stuff is not high level thinking. It is basic commonsense.

Your child is not being harmed by being referred to as a person.

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding by some people that an absence of something can cause harm. Removing seatbelts from cars does not cause harm in itself, however the lack of seatbelt if you find yourself in a car crash can cause immense harm. Removing the identity of women as a biological sex-based group does not immediately cause harm, but when women are oppressed, attacked or caused any other harm as individuals, it’s important that that group, and it’s weaknesses and the reasons for it’s oppression are acknowledged and understood. If the words woman and girl cannot be applied to women and girls because it’s not inclusive enough or is somehow unacceptable, then harm will be caused to women and girls. As another poster has said, without sex, you cannot fight sexism. There is too much evidence that this is being mainly applied to women and girls for women to allow it to simply become the normal way of society, and I am appalled to find that in many circumstances, women are complicit in this degradation of our own status.

I would ask the school to explain their policy and the reasoning behind it. If they are doing it to include girls who identify as boys then I would ask them if they allow in sexed boys who identify as girls. If not I’d hammer them on their hypocrisy.

She absolutely should NOT have said daughters and rightly checked herself. People who are obsessed with the trans issue see trans everywhere, but "daughter" should not be used because not every person acting with parental responsibility is a parent, and it really is a smack in the face to children missing a parent if the teacher keeps saying "mums and dads" "parents" etc. if they haven't got that in their lives.

Speak to the school, OP. This woman-hating male rights activism must be challenged. Men do NOT get to take the word woman from us and leave us with 'bodies with vaginas'. How is it that such an 'oppressed' group wields such enormous political power?

As a pp said, if we can't name our sex we can't fight sexism. Which is the end game here really isn't it?

Why don’t they say girls and trans boys? That’s inclusive
Just like women AND people with cervixes is inclusive

And here we go with the transphobic comments...

I really don't understand why people think that being more gender neutral somehow erases women. Just one of the many excuses to hide your transphobia behind.

It's not a big deal and clearly you all have far too much time on your hands to be so concerned and worried about people being referred to as people instead of split into M/F categories. Get a life.

They don’t say sons or daughters in one of my children’s classes because two children are being fostered by other family members. It’s nothing to do with the sex or gender of the children in this case.
If you read about stereotype threat, you might prefer for your daughter not to be constantly reminded that she’s a girl in an academic setting.

I would expect the school to refer to all of them as girls whether they had trans students or not. I would expect any female trans students not to be asked to leave but to be supported as a female who identifies as a boy and everyone to recognise they are still the female sex hence no grounds to ask them to leave.
The only local example I know is a transwoman who stayed enrolled at their all boys high school, which seems appropriate to me. They certainly can’t go to a girls school.

I hear you OP. My teen's school still refers to them as girls and daughters as well as additive language.

@FangsForTheMemory

Oh give the anti-trans stuff a rest!

🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

I think what underlines you feelings is that we have gone from a world where women were excluded and ignored, to one where they were seen as equal participants and we were striving for equality, to ones where our very identities are erased, have become the unsayable. It’s as erasing for women as they being excluded was. It reeks of it being somehow shameful to be a woman. It takes us back to the dark ages as the shameful, unnameable, erases, excluded, unequal members of society.

How can your DD and her friends learn to be proud of who they are if they cannot be named?

How can we tackle sexism and all the resultant harm to women if we cannot name sex?

Frankly I'm surprised they are prepared to say 'children'. I work in publishing, mostly dealing with the subject of education in schools, and I never see anything but 'students'. Even five-year olds are students, never pupils or children. If they are differentiated they are male and female students, not boys and girls. It's not the end of the world but to me it conveys an impression of the little darlings getting their heads down and being under pressure to be educated, rather than being actual children who are exploring the world in a safe space, learning as they go.

Yanbu op.

I'm not anti trans but I don't want my rights taken away so that a man can become a woman and have his/her rights.

@DressedUpAtAnIvy

They don’t say sons or daughters in one of my children’s classes because two children are being fostered by other family members. It’s nothing to do with the sex or gender of the children in this case. If you read about stereotype threat, you might prefer for your daughter not to be constantly reminded that she’s a girl in an academic setting.

That is the opposite of the rationale and the studied benefit of girls schools. Girls get the freedom of not having boys around and to celebrate being girls/women. Time enough for them to have to stress about being ‘girly’ or ‘feminine’. One of my high schools has the campaign girls,unstoppable. It’s a great mantra for young girls to grow up with.

I really don't understand why people think that being more gender neutral somehow erases women.

You are then happy to be referred to as a 'body with a vagina' or a 'body with a penis' then. You are happy with the term 'birthing bodies', even when referring to black women?

Because these are the current batch of 'gender neutral' terms being used.

How about addressing this with the school?

Since this term started five pupils in my DD's year have identified as non-binary. Across her girls' school there are now c.40 trans/nb pupils out of a total of 800.

It's a nightmare for the school. Their cohort has had a particularly tough time going through puberty in time of covid and lockdowns. They want to be supportive so they use inclusive language and have assemblies about diversity but by doing so they are reinforcing the narrative that is driving the girls' discomfort.

Dd is bewildered - 'it's not "cool" to just be a girl'. She is now contemplating whether she might be pansexual. She is 12 .

@labourslostlove

Interesting point *@astoundedgoat* about the benefit of being able to keep trans-identifying girls in an all girl environment - for safety and for it to be a reversible decision.

It's not even about keeping them there, it's trans-identifying teen themselves (being neutral because the same can apply in a boys school too of course) is not ASKING to move school, but still getting up every morning and going to their existing single-sex school, even when there are several other options nearby.

If they're not fussing about that, then I think that's significant, and I would just let them be.

Yes good point. How can trans women be women if women and the language to describe/ identify the. Has been obliterated?

It's total bollocks when you analyse it. And offensive. Imagine if we tried to erase certain racial or religious IDS. Imagine if we told Jews they were no longer allowed to refer to themselves as Jews, or black people that their colour either didn't exist or wasn't allowed to be named? It's fascist.

Is also be really curious to know How they describe themselves. Are they a single sex school? Are they a girls school. Are they a people school. People with vagina school. What does it say in their website.

I do agree with you OP, it feels like the world gone crazy when people are scared to address kids by their gender just incase they identify as something else. They are ‘girls’ or ‘young women’.

As someone who’s pretty open minded and someone who often wears clothes from the men’s section or ‘non binary clothing’ I still find it hard to address people as not by their sex. I guess if I was a teenager now I would be classed as non binary due to how I present myself but I am 100% female and proud to be a strong women. Why are we not raising our children to be who they want to be without having to label it?