To Feel Really Saddened That DD's School can't say Daughter or Girl

[Memeapple]

I went to a my DD's high performing Central London Girls school last night for an introduction to year 8 where they mainly talked about attendance.

We then had a talk by the form tutor in the classroom. I noticed that during the entire form tutor chat she was referring to the girls as children. This wasn't an accident because at one point she nearly said daughters but stopped herself. I've noticed my daughter talking about the girls in her class as "people". I've also seen her gender PHSE work from year 7 which says if you misgender someone it is an act of violence. Hmm what about obliteration of gender?

I am profoundly dismayed by this and feel that the school is complicit in the stripping of girls/women's identities. How can "inclusivity" mean that the females have no identity whatsoever?

Am finding this whole situation really really disconcerting. Something nefarious has penetrated the school system. How can fundamental biological/physiological fact be washed away by "lived experience".

But it didn't seem to matter to him or his friends. They are entitled to be more interested in other things if that is how they feel. If for some reason they admitted the girl to a boys school, the school with the best GCSE and A level results in our LA, I think that potentially that is a positive.

Of course it matters. If the child is actually a girl, rather than a boy who wants to be a girl, do you think it's appropriate for her to change for PE with the boys? If there's a school trip (or if it's a boarding school) do you think it's appropriate for her to share a dorm with the boys?

If it's a boy who wants to be a girl, it's fine for him to be treated just like all the other boys.

If it is an all girls school, why are there non girls attending there?

@georgarina

This example is minor but still indicative of a wider issue.

I have no issue with trans identity - but not at the expense of my own identity. So you have the right to identify any way you want, but you don't have the right to erase anyone else's identity in the process.

It would be like if I, as a white woman, identified as black. But then I campaigned to make Black History Month inclusive of white people who felt black, and scholarships, awards and societies for black people had to also include transracial people. Statistics on hate crime and racial inequality became meaningless because they also included white people. Quotes by MLK were retroactively censored to eliminate use of the word 'black.' We could no longer refer to the black identity at all because it wasn't inclusive, but the white identity was unchanged.

Would anyone think that was ok? Of course not. But in this case no one seems to see the problem.

We're already there, @georgarina. Did you see what the American Civil Liberties Union did last week?

thehill.com/homenews/media/574213-aclu-chief-apologizes-for-altering-ruth-bader-ginsburg-tweet-with-gender

"The decision whether or not to bear a child is central to a [person’s] life, to [their] well-being and dignity," it wrote. "When the government controls that decision for [people], [they are] being treated as less than a fully adult human responsible for [their] own choices.”

This is what she originally wrote. The decision whether or not to bear a child is central to a woman’s life, to her well-being and dignity. It is a decision she must make for herself. When Government controls that decision for her, she is being treated as less than a fully adult human responsible for her own choices.

I see the ACLU has now issued an apology for changing her words but ruined it by saying they thought she would have said that differently nowadays. Oh really.

Any child attending an all girls school should reasonably expect to be called a girl.

The issue I see isn't that the children were addressed as children but rather the deliberate removal of words that would indicate only female students are being addressed at an all girls school.

I hate the fact that as a female I am expected to accept an alternative such as cis woman to be considered inclusive, that as people 'lucky' enough to identify with our biological sex we should give up the terms man/woman is something I can't get on board with.

@EdgeOfACoin

Do all the ones about sex and gender get moved?

Yes, usually. There's a conversation about 'cis' on the AIBU board right now. Waiting for that to get moved too.

Someone doesn't like us talking about this stuff and it gets moved over here pretty quickly.

I know it's a bit off to quote one's own post, but I note that the AIBU thread about the term 'cis' has now been moved to this board as predicted.

But it didn't seem to matter to him or his friends. They are entitled to be more interested in other things if that is how they feel.

Of course. And it won't matter to many of them until it does matter. Until they reach a scenario where sex matters and it may be a matter for safeguarding. If they are all males attending an all boys school, it may not matter at all. It doesn't mean that for other children/teens it shouldn't or doesn't matter.

If for some reason they admitted the girl to a boys school, the school with the best GCSE and A level results in our LA, I think that potentially that is a positive.

Right... and how would they safeguard that female student amongst the males? Or do you think that the female student will simply pass completely (being under 18 and having no access at all to virilising hormones so it would be doubtful that they would 'pass') and not require safeguarding? You think that every single male student will treat that female student with complete respect and privacy?

I wish I had know students like that at my high school. That sounds like Utopia!

Of course, if that female was properly safeguarded (as well as everyone's privacy respected) and not discriminated against in any way, while at that school it could be a positive thing. Unless some of the male students had religious needs that needed to be considered too.

@OldCrone

But it didn't seem to matter to him or his friends. They are entitled to be more interested in other things if that is how they feel. If for some reason they admitted the girl to a boys school, the school with the best GCSE and A level results in our LA, I think that potentially that is a positive.

Of course it matters. If the child is actually a girl, rather than a boy who wants to be a girl, do you think it's appropriate for her to change for PE with the boys? If there's a school trip (or if it's a boarding school) do you think it's appropriate for her to share a dorm with the boys?

If it's a boy who wants to be a girl, it's fine for him to be treated just like all the other boys.

I think we can all accept that there is no way they are going to discuss that with me. If it is a girl I'm sure they have made appropriate arrangements for PE and trips and it isn't a boarding school.

@Helleofabore

But it didn't seem to matter to him or his friends. They are entitled to be more interested in other things if that is how they feel.

Of course. And it won't matter to many of them until it does matter. Until they reach a scenario where sex matters and it may be a matter for safeguarding. If they are all males attending an all boys school, it may not matter at all. It doesn't mean that for other children/teens it shouldn't or doesn't matter.

If for some reason they admitted the girl to a boys school, the school with the best GCSE and A level results in our LA, I think that potentially that is a positive.

Right... and how would they safeguard that female student amongst the males? Or do you think that the female student will simply pass completely (being under 18 and having no access at all to virilising hormones so it would be doubtful that they would 'pass') and not require safeguarding? You think that every single male student will treat that female student with complete respect and privacy?

I wish I had know students like that at my high school. That sounds like Utopia!

Of course, if that female was properly safeguarded (as well as everyone's privacy respected) and not discriminated against in any way, while at that school it could be a positive thing. Unless some of the male students had religious needs that needed to be considered too.

As above I'm sure a school with a very good reputation is going to ensure everyone is safe. I don't know about the rest of the school but the boys in that form seem to just accept him/her.

@Memeapple

To the person who said I was hard work - my husband would certainly agree with you!

But I do feel like something terrible is happening and I want it to be known.

Hard work or not you don't want to engage about using daughter when not all the girls with have parents in their lives for a variety of reasons.

As above I'm sure a school with a very good reputation is going to ensure everyone is safe. I don't know about the rest of the school but the boys in that form seem to just accept him/her.

Sorry, I am confused.

Are you talking about a boys school accepting a female student or a trans girl?

I agree with you OP.

DD goes to a GDST school who are the biggest girls school trust and they refer to them as "girls" and "daughters". To be honest I find it strange as she came from a mixed primary.

I suspect they have a pupil there who this refers to and have been asked to change their language for that child and their parents.

I wouldn't like it

I think we can all accept that there is no way they are going to discuss that with me. If it is a girl I'm sure they have made appropriate arrangements for PE and trips and it isn't a boarding school

I'm guessing you haven't seen the guidnece have you? Where it specifically states that if any of the children have an issue with changing in front of a member of the opposite sex then the solution is to allow that child to change elsewhere. The trans child is not to be asked to change separately.

Here ancient

You are very trusting. The truth is you absolutely cannot be sure safeguarding is being upheld.

It’s the same in my dc’s boys’ school. They don’t refer to them collectively as ‘boys’ anymore

@Whatwouldscullydo

I think we can all accept that there is no way they are going to discuss that with me. If it is a girl I'm sure they have made appropriate arrangements for PE and trips and it isn't a boarding school

I'm guessing you haven't seen the guidnece have you? Where it specifically states that if any of the children have an issue with changing in front of a member of the opposite sex then the solution is to allow that child to change elsewhere. The trans child is not to be asked to change separately.

Also the girl guides now allow boys in who self-identify as girls. If any of these self-identified male 'girls' are going on a residential trip, the parents won't be told that their daughter might be sharing accommodation with a male.

I certainly wouldn't complacently assume that a school or any other organisation has made appropriate arrangements.

I certainly wouldn't complacently assume that a school or any other organisation has made appropriate arrangements

Especially when the answer is to fire those who bring the concerns concerns light whilst continuing to follow contributions from someone who has an 80 page investigation to their name having been found incapable of understanding safguarding

I just had an online parents' information evening at my daughter's girls' school. The three staff all talked about "student", "child", "they" and no mention of "daughter", "girl" or "she". I pointed this out in a question saying that as a feminist I object to the erasure of the female and that a girls' school shouldn't be ashamed of female words.
To her credit the headteacher did address the question and said that they aren't ashamed of the female and they're all big feminists, but they must be inclusive blah blah. However the words "girl" and "daughter" were occasionally used after my comment. Hopefully they'll think about what they are doing.

Do boys' school erase masculine words? I haven't noticed it at my sons' boys' school.

I then said in another questions that gender ideology is all sexist stereotypes and suggested they look at Safe Schools Alliance and Transgender Trend. We really need to point this stuff out when we come across it.

This thread is so depressing in its necessity. How can it be wrong for women (you know, cervix-havers) to be known as women? And how can I be known as a woman if anyone and everyone can be known as a woman if they only say so? It loses all meaning and then how am I to identify? Some (including some here) argue that my identity doesn't matter, but what about all the struggles and issues that face only those formally identified as 'women'? How do we talk about that if 'woman' means nothing more than a person who says "I'm a woman"?

How the fuck does anyone think this is okay?

hellofabore

In year 7 I saw a child dressed as a girl, school blazer, shirt and tie but wearing a skirt

I think the odds of a gender dysphoric female being admitted to an all male school and being the only child in a skirt are incredibly low

@KeepingTheWormsQuiet

I just had an online parents' information evening at my daughter's girls' school. The three staff all talked about "student", "child", "they" and no mention of "daughter", "girl" or "she". I pointed this out in a question saying that as a feminist I object to the erasure of the female and that a girls' school shouldn't be ashamed of female words. To her credit the headteacher did address the question and said that they aren't ashamed of the female and they're all big feminists, but they must be inclusive blah blah. However the words "girl" and "daughter" were occasionally used after my comment. Hopefully they'll think about what they are doing.

Do boys' school erase masculine words? I haven't noticed it at my sons' boys' school.

I then said in another questions that gender ideology is all sexist stereotypes and suggested they look at Safe Schools Alliance and Transgender Trend. We really need to point this stuff out when we come across it.

I've just filled in an online form for my grandchild, every question was asking about my son/daughter as my children are all adults, the eldest nearly 50 it didn't seem very appropriate.

Maybe you could also point out that not all children live with their parents and not all responsible adults have daughters/sons at the school.

It isn't the 1950s, people are aware that families come in all shapes and sizes. Well most people are.

@Whatwouldscullydo

I think we can all accept that there is no way they are going to discuss that with me. If it is a girl I'm sure they have made appropriate arrangements for PE and trips and it isn't a boarding school

I'm guessing you haven't seen the guidnece have you? Where it specifically states that if any of the children have an issue with changing in front of a member of the opposite sex then the solution is to allow that child to change elsewhere. The trans child is not to be asked to change separately.

To be fair I don't know if the child is trans, nobody on here knows the child is trans. My point was it didn't seem to worry the other children if a girl was attending a boys school or if it was a boy who was transitioning.

No child is trans.

@Helleofabore

As above I'm sure a school with a very good reputation is going to ensure everyone is safe. I don't know about the rest of the school but the boys in that form seem to just accept him/her.

Sorry, I am confused.

Are you talking about a boys school accepting a female student or a trans girl?

I didn't do an examination, I just saw a child at a boys school in school uniform but with a skirt instead of trousers. I have no idea if the child was a girl, a transgirl, a boy who likes wearing skirts, a girl who is going to transition or any other combination. So I'm sorry I can't tell you.

@MiladyBerserko

No child is trans.

Well all I can say is a child who was dressed in a school uniform for a boys school with the addition of a skirt was attending the school.