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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

To Feel Really Saddened That DD's School can't say Daughter or Girl

326 replies

Memeapple · 28/09/2021 08:45

I went to a my DD's high performing Central London Girls school last night for an introduction to year 8 where they mainly talked about attendance.

We then had a talk by the form tutor in the classroom. I noticed that during the entire form tutor chat she was referring to the girls as children. This wasn't an accident because at one point she nearly said daughters but stopped herself. I've noticed my daughter talking about the girls in her class as "people". I've also seen her gender PHSE work from year 7 which says if you misgender someone it is an act of violence. Hmm what about obliteration of gender?

I am profoundly dismayed by this and feel that the school is complicit in the stripping of girls/women's identities. How can "inclusivity" mean that the females have no identity whatsoever?

Am finding this whole situation really really disconcerting. Something nefarious has penetrated the school system. How can fundamental biological/physiological fact be washed away by "lived experience".

OP posts:
VestaTilley · 28/09/2021 11:39

YANBU. I’d be writing to the Head to complain.

Erasing girls and women’s names for ourselves helps nobody and is regressive. We can’t fight sexism if we can’t name our sex.

amter · 28/09/2021 11:39

This doesn't sit well with me at all. Words matter, and they matter even more when it comes to identity and a sense of self. These are formative years for children, we can't eliminate the words women, girls, daughters from vocabulary in a misguided attempt to be inclusive, that is a dangerous path.

georgarina · 28/09/2021 11:39

This example is minor but still indicative of a wider issue.

I have no issue with trans identity - but not at the expense of my own identity. So you have the right to identify any way you want, but you don't have the right to erase anyone else's identity in the process.

It would be like if I, as a white woman, identified as black. But then I campaigned to make Black History Month inclusive of white people who felt black, and scholarships, awards and societies for black people had to also include transracial people. Statistics on hate crime and racial inequality became meaningless because they also included white people. Quotes by MLK were retroactively censored to eliminate use of the word 'black.' We could no longer refer to the black identity at all because it wasn't inclusive, but the white identity was unchanged.

Would anyone think that was ok? Of course not. But in this case no one seems to see the problem.

JanetheObscure · 28/09/2021 11:43

Agree with others that the decision not to refer to "daughters" may be because some students in the school do not live with their parents, but with carers. I would hope that no-one would object to this.

Not ever referring to "girls", however, is another matter entirely.

purplecarrot23 · 28/09/2021 11:44

Why has this been moved to a different board? OP was asking is she was BU.

There's another AIBU regarding university fees - that hasn't been moved to the education boards.

sanluca · 28/09/2021 11:45

@LukeEvansWife

I hate this kind of thing - but if only there were a specific board on MN to discuss it....
Actually, it had nothing to do with transgender rights until posters came along that said that not accepting language devoid of woman and girls is anti transgender.

Read that again: talking about the words woman and girl in relation to women and girls is anti transgender. Why is that? If there was no conflict of interest, this position would never be brought up, now would it?

So far we have had:

  • be kind
  • stop exaggerating
  • it doesn't hurt you
  • you can't stop it whether you like it or not
  • you are like racists

Have we had the 'you are all old, the young ones get it' argument yet or did I miss that one?

Memeapple · 28/09/2021 11:46

@Whatwouldscullydo

Fair enough but there has been an explosion of gender dysphoria in young girls and that can lead to breast binding and hormone taking. You got to ask what's driving it?

There was supoosed to he and enquiry into the 4000 percent increase in girls presenting at gender clinics.

But it never happened. And jts all just a young people/children issue and the 75/25 sex split flip is if course not noticed.

Remind me again why erasing sex isn't a problem?

Exactly. Someone with a brain needs to join the dots. No one seems to think that the epidemic of girls not wanting to be girls is a problem.

I would write to my MP but he happens to be Keir Starmer who might be confused as to whether I have a cervix or not?

OP posts:
YetAnotherSpartacus · 28/09/2021 11:50

And we've landed in the naughty corner so as not to infect the rest of MN!

IvyTwines2 · 28/09/2021 11:51

I noticed in the Rachel Reeves clip from Ch4 News last night she often used 'people' when she meant 'women' when discussing the EA: 'safe spaces for people', 'protection for people'. It's like a memo has gone out that 'woman' is a dirty word to be avoided at all costs.

GloomAndDoom · 28/09/2021 11:51

I thought this was in AIBU?

Memeapple · 28/09/2021 11:53

Is MN afraid of this conversation?

Don't we need the lid taken off this issue?

OP posts:
ancientgran · 28/09/2021 11:55

@Microwaveableteapot

Everyone studiously ignoring ancientgrans very valid point about why referring just to 'daughters' in that kind of setting might be inappropriate Hmm
Thank you. Some kids/children/girls/boys have a difficult time. The entitled attitude of some is depressing when they refuse to recognise that a child can be hurt by their demands.
ancientgran · 28/09/2021 11:56

@DefineHappy

Well, ancientgran could start a thread on it if desired….
So my point which is explaining why something might or might not be appropriate isn't welcome. Nice.
ArabellaScott · 28/09/2021 11:57

@Memeapple

Is MN afraid of this conversation?

Don't we need the lid taken off this issue?

Yes, and yes.
ArabellaScott · 28/09/2021 11:58

@JanetheObscure

Agree with others that the decision not to refer to "daughters" may be because some students in the school do not live with their parents, but with carers. I would hope that no-one would object to this.

Not ever referring to "girls", however, is another matter entirely.

Yes, that's a fair point.
ancientgran · 28/09/2021 12:00

@Goingdriving

I would ask the school to explain their policy and the reasoning behind it. If they are doing it to include girls who identify as boys then I would ask them if they allow in sexed boys who identify as girls. If not I’d hammer them on their hypocrisy.
If the teacher almost said daughter then changing that to girl can sound awkward/wrong and child fits better.

I hope your dau..... girl is doing well.

I hope your dau..... child is doing well.

I don't know why but the second sounds better to me. I'm sure someone who knows alot about language could maybe explain if that matters.

I've already explained about daughter.

ancientgran · 28/09/2021 12:01

@deplorabelle

She absolutely should NOT have said daughters and rightly checked herself. People who are obsessed with the trans issue see trans everywhere, but "daughter" should not be used because not every person acting with parental responsibility is a parent, and it really is a smack in the face to children missing a parent if the teacher keeps saying "mums and dads" "parents" etc. if they haven't got that in their lives.
Thank you, it is encouraging that people do understand.
BiBabbles · 28/09/2021 12:02

I can see why a school would avoid using daughters for reasons that have nothing with gender, as others have already discussed.

The avoiding using girls part though, I can see why that could be called into question to at least understand why though I can also understand that the school may be in a difficult place on that depending on what's going on with their students and the area.

A school promoting the idea of misgendering as violence... yeah, I'd want more information on that, I don't like the idea of being taught someone can accidentally be violent or that other people not seeing us as we see ourselves is violence. Hurtful, sure, violent, no. Using misgendering to harass someone (which happens to people of all identities and points of view on gender and I would want that made clear if it's going to be approach) is different so I'd want to know how that was covered. That would concern me far more than gender neutral language in the context given.

I think in the current situation the schools really are doing their best to "be kind" (and in this situation this is an appropriate way to describe it) to teens just starting to navigate their personal and sexual identities, in the middle of a pandemic and school closures.

I do think it is in large part the schools generally wanting to "be kind" and there is a lot of pressure for them to find a balance with very limited support and conflicting messages of what they're meant to do.

Even before all the COVID issues that have just compounded things, puberty is a difficult time and there are so many messages around identity that schools are trying to figure things out while things keep quickly changing that I imagine it's hard for many staff in schools trying to figure out how to handle these things.

I don't think it's helped that sexual identities have often been mixed into gender identities.

It was interesting when touring a new build school recently that when it was discussed that there were girl, boys, and unisex toilets in a particular area, one person nodded and said very confidently "for trans students". The headteacher giving the tour clarified that they were for anyone who might prefer them and, in this area, for guests into the building. Later, she went on to discuss that their main focus in giving students time to figure things out, not to put them into a box so no, the unisex toilets are not to be labelled as for trans students. They are simply the unisex toilets or the gender neutral toilets.

It was actually a thing for the school that some of the students had thought all the toilets in the new build would be unisex. It upset a lot of them and it had to be retold to everyone that wasn't the case.

And if you're going to start with the "genitals = someones gender identity" then I'm sorry but, you are 100% transphobic.

Also, stop being so obsessed with people's genitals, it's weird.

Someone's sex is far far more than their genitals. There are many dysphoric who actually have more distress around our other sex traits that are visible (or audible, voice is a huge thing for many), because part of it is how we are perceived by others. Erasing our sex down to our genitals is to erase how gender dysphoria works and doing it to mock and dismiss those who prioritize sex over gender identity doesn't change that.

Male and female aren't gender identities, it's how we sex everything including plants and yes, even dysphoric people are male or female. How we want to be seen can differ from that, but as treating gender dysphoria has changed with the times and will continue to do so, the whole 'doesn't fit neatly' as a model for gender issues isn't a universally recognized one and some find it harmful, it treats us as having failed at our sex for having issues with it and being percieved as it.

I don't have the hubris to think I have any fucking idea what future generations will think, but what I wish is that one day, as a society, we will realize the risks of individualism and having practically everything as commodity to be sold to us including gender these days is that our sense of self is treated as both innate and as a preference, which means our way of being are treated as consumables.

It is in part a backlash to more rigid models, but as one of many models for identity, I think the pendulum is being swung too far and the results won't be as inclusive or 'our true selves' as some like to think anymore than other radical identity shifts.

Classic example of privileged people mistaking a slight inconvenience as some form of opression.

Might want to look into research on teaching people about privilege. All I've read so far is that it doesn't make those in power nicer, it just makes them meaner to their own without considering wider context -- so White people taught privilege tend to be crueler to other White people regardless of any intersections, but it makes them no nicer to marginalized ethnicities. Not sure what it is about the ape brain that makes us think just making it harder for each other is enough, but it's been shown time and again it doesn't help anyone. It's useful in theory and discussions around the topic, but it's failed in practice for improving how people treat others.

Happy for gender to be erased. Prefer my 2 sons and 2 daughters to just be treated as people and not as boys or girls.

For me, it depends on the context and I think it does for them too.

A talk as described, I likely wouldn't notice much.

When my son was little and dealt with a lot of shite over wearing his hair long and with headbands (to meet the same rules as the girls), he definitely wanted his sex recognized. He sobbed about how he just wanted to be seen as a 'cool dude'.

When my he was being sexual harassed at 15, I wanted his and the adult perpetrators sex and ages recognized.

When my daughter was a victim of peer-on-peer abuse, I wanted it recognize that it was boy-on-girl abuse, it was specifically about her being female and he thought girls should do that was being targeted.

When after that she and her siblings joined a local protest about violence against girls and women in our community, and I had some stranger come up to me to tell me how she thought it disgusting that I let my kids participate and even after explaining I was supporting my daughter's choice, I got told 'don't you know men get raped too?, I really wish that person could have recognized that while that is true, what my daughter really wanted at that time was to seen as a girl safely and be supported. She needed what was used against her to be valued and protected.

While there are risks to focusing too much of our sense of self on demographics, there are benefits to focusing on them a bit for a time and in having them recognized and seen as important by others when relevant.

Luna2021 · 28/09/2021 12:07

[quote backinthebox]**@Luna2021* You're simply being asked to refer to other people as they wish to be referred to. Pretty simple.* Read this. And then tell us why it only applies in the direction you want it to.[/quote]
@backinthebox Excuse me? Are you talking to yourself here?

If someone wants to be referred to as female/women I will 100% honour that. I don't get your point here. You're the one ignoring people's wishes of how they wish to be referred to.

YouMeandtheSpew · 28/09/2021 12:09

Treating people exactly the same is often the most discriminatory thing you can do.

Agreed and I think this is a really important point in relation to equality generally. Equality is not about treating everyone exactly the same. It’s about levelling the playing field. Denying difference is not inclusive.

ancientgran · 28/09/2021 12:09

@Itsbeen84yearss

I wonder what’s happening in boys schools. I wouldn’t like it either. I have daughters and they are girls until they tell me otherwise
One of my grandsons goes to a boys school, it has boy in the name. In year 7 I saw a child dressed as a girl, school blazer, shirt and tie but wearing a skirt. I asked grandson if they had girls at the school. He said he didn't know, he'd heard the child was a boy transitioing to a girl or a girl transition to a boy. Then he said, "Does it matter?"
Whatwouldscullydo · 28/09/2021 12:12

ancient

Actually you sum up nicely what the problem is. Inclusion these days only seeks to ever be about one thing.

Both my dds schools for years have set each email addressed to parents/carers

Its something that is very easy and many schools addressed years ago.

But these days inclusion is not about making schools safe for the students. Money that should be spent on resources for disabled children amd those with SN is non existent whilst there's simultaneously money for gender neutral toilets and to pay stonewall fir illegal.advice. all whole parents have to chip in and donate loo roll and glue sticks or whatever.

So whilst patting themselves on the back for " inclusive language" which is to the detriment of the students because the only ones allowed to be called girls are those born male, all the other kids go without.

foxgoosefinch · 28/09/2021 12:12

If it’s somewhere like SPG then there have been a fair few articles I think about how entrenched gender ideology is there. I don’t know how much that reflects other schools, but it seems like some of the top independents - which cater to girls who are in other ways very privileged - seem to be particularly in thrall to this.

Amongst my own students (university) the divide is very marked between the young middle class white women who have been to grammar and private schools, who are very much into gender identity theory; and the young women who are black or Asian or working class, or for whatever reason are relatively less privileged, who are very much less into gender ideology (and the most GC of all of them is a young black woman who has grown up partly in an African country which is not known for its progressive treatment of women, let us say).

gladis665 · 28/09/2021 12:14

fucking hell Mumsnet. have you attempted to bury this??

OldCrone · 28/09/2021 12:14

Why was this thread moved? It was on AIBU this morning with a vote of about 90% saying YANBU.

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