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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Starmer on Marr now

386 replies

Jaysmith71 · 26/09/2021 09:47

We must have a tolerent debate.... Trans community are the most marginalised community of all

....and 'Only women have a cervix' is, "Something that should not be said."

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AngeloMysterioso · 26/09/2021 14:05

As Sarah Ditum rightly pointed out on Twitter, he’s more tolerant of Angela Rayner calling people scum than of women talking about biology.

Fitt · 26/09/2021 14:05

@OldCrone

I do think he was trying to stand by Rosie.

If he was really trying to stand by Rosie he could have made an unambiguous statement that it's not transphobic to say that.

Completely agree, he was cowardly with the whole mature debate get out clause because saying it has zero impact on the debate without stronger rebuttal.

Same with Sadiq Kahn earlier. His immediate response to a question was to look around in all directions in panic.

Neither of them are examples of strong leadership.

NoWordForFluffy · 26/09/2021 14:07

@BettyFilous

I spoiled my ballot in May for the first time ever, couldn’t not vote. Looks like I’ll be doing the same at the next GE. Sigh.
Same here.

When do we get the Green's leadership results? Ali is my only hope right now, as I'm just not sure I can bring myself to vote Tory. What a fucking mess.

timeisnotaline · 26/09/2021 14:15

@Fitt

The "not right" was where Marr cut him off. He continues by saying "Oh, Andrew, I don’t think that we can just go through various things that people have said"

So I'm prepared to take that as him not wishing to use tweet rows as a mature debate. Which I agree with.

It didn't come over clearly and it's massive fence sitting still and the word "transphobic" probably is as incomprehensible an accusation to him as it is to the majority of the country, but I do think he was trying to stand by Rosie.

I’ve gotta say if you think that was him showing he stands by Rosie you must think he’s a walking talking example of dumb as dog shit.
Floisme · 26/09/2021 14:17

It really is embarrassing how desperate I am to find a reason to vote Labour, and how I eagerly I hoover up any scraps they throw my way, e.g. that non-statement earlier this week. But the day will come when I no longer care what they say.

NoWordForFluffy · 26/09/2021 14:20

@Jaysmith71

OK, he's a lawyer. His job is to state his client's case, and to do so as if it were true.

The most charitable explanation is that he doesn't believe this shit but feels obliged to advocate it.

Lawyers also aren't allowed to mislead the court, i.e. say anything we know is blatantly untrue. Taking the 'he's a lawyer' principle through to its logical conclusion, Starmer really shouldn't be coming out with this utter fucking shit.

I'm absolutely fucking livid with Starmer (his left wing leadership contenders signed the stupid trans pledge, so I knew they were doomed; I had vague clearly fucking misplaced optimism that Starmer would have / see sense.

DrBlackbird · 26/09/2021 14:25

Do none of these politicians see what I’m seeing? In trying to justify their party position and tying themselves up in linguistic knots to justify the conflation of sex and gender, they are perpetuating a narrative that IMO is harming many of our young vulnerable teen girls.

So many young girls that I see who are increasingly confused, maybe feel different, perhaps have SpLDs or are on the spectrum, who are led to believe that they can change their sex as easily as changing a name or pronoun. Who don’t see that they are collateral damage in the strategy to dismantle single sex spaces because they are kind and because they do want to be inclusive and supportive. And because they are young, inexperienced in female discrimination.

All aided and abetted by our liberal politicians perfectly happy that these girls become that collateral damage. I picture Keir and Angela et al sticking cotton wool in their ears going ‘I can’t hear you’ when others try to explain the implications of their putatively well intended support for some margalinised communities.

Or… I would have assumed well intended support but for Charley’s post about her research.

Fitt · 26/09/2021 14:30

I’ve gotta say if you think that was him showing he stands by Rosie you must think he’s a walking talking example of dumb as dog shit.

Are you Angela Rayner?

And no, I don't think people are as dumb as dog shit. Feel free to describe people that way but don't ascribe it to me.

Goldshelfie · 26/09/2021 14:31

I really doubt that he was saying the accusations of transphobia against Rosie were “not right to say”, the question was “is it transphobic to say only women have a cervix” and he said “it is something that shouldn’t be said, it’s not right”. I don’t see any way to spin that as support for Rosie? At the very least you’d think he would have corrected this impression if people are taking it in the opposite way to what he meant, and he hasn’t.

Unfortunately I have to conclude that he has come off the fence and landed squarely on the side of this damaging ideology. I am very disappointed, I am a lefty at heart but this issue is a deal breaker for me.

LemonSwan · 26/09/2021 14:32

And someone asked earlier on a thread about private schools why the red wall turned blue.

Its like half the UK just lives in a parallel universe.

Fitt · 26/09/2021 14:38

I'm not spinning. I'm simply trying to understand. I think it's grim when people are edited or misinterpreted. Look at how horrible the misinterpretation of JKRs tweet about ignoring the pornographic abuse she was sent was.
I have no intention of voting labour and this goes back to 2016 when Jess Phillips tried to get a private members bill through replacing sex with gender identity in EQ2010 in advance of the planned consultation. Their objective were clear then.

The Conservative government actually understood the consultation feedback and changed direction, Labour haven't and won't.

Labour should stay relegated for as long as possible.

Babdoc · 26/09/2021 14:43

Spotted a lovely comment under the article reporting this interview in the Herald:
“Starmer’s father was a toolmaker. Keir is a perfect example of his father’s work!”
I cannot disagree…Grin

TooWicked · 26/09/2021 15:03

twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1442082718402154498?s=21

Well at least Sajid Javid is clear.

OvaHere · 26/09/2021 15:03

@Babdoc

Spotted a lovely comment under the article reporting this interview in the Herald: “Starmer’s father was a toolmaker. Keir is a perfect example of his father’s work!” I cannot disagree…Grin
Ouch Grin
MummBraTheEverLeaking · 26/09/2021 15:04

Bloody hell. I've been out all morning and afternoon so only just caught up on this.

That's that then. You can "respectful debate" on one hand and police women's language about their own biology as "shouldn't be said" on the other. He's not fired Rosie Duffield but that's neither here nor there now, because he's shown where he stands and it's not with women.

He, along with the Labour party, can fuck right off.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 26/09/2021 15:06

@AngeloMysterioso

As Sarah Ditum rightly pointed out on Twitter, he’s more tolerant of Angela Rayner calling people scum than of women talking about biology.
Yes he is

It was very jarring

littlbrowndog · 26/09/2021 15:07

But it seems like every a politician is asked about women. They always jump straight to the most marginalised ever trans people

Why can’t they talk about women

Khan did it davey did it rayner did

LizzieSiddal · 26/09/2021 15:08

Marr’s questioning was frustrating and inadequate.
The point is that the language surrounding women and the actual word “woman” is being erased. Women are very angry about this. What are you going to do about it Stammer?!

ChristinaXYZ · 26/09/2021 15:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OvaHere · 26/09/2021 15:12

Who in their right mind votes the way her husband tells her. And jokes about DV on top

I think you misread that post. They didn't mention a husband.

tiddlysquat · 26/09/2021 15:18

Just watched this too. I'm more mad that I've been for ages.

We need a new political party

ChristinaXYZ · 26/09/2021 15:22

@OvaHere

Who in their right mind votes the way her husband tells her. And jokes about DV on top

I think you misread that post. They didn't mention a husband.

Apologies, other half tells him/her to vote. I had assumed that most DV was committed by men and therefore this other half was male. I stand corrected. Unless you're quibbling about marital status. Either way one is meant to assume the whole scenario is made up so the 'facts' you're pointing out are hardly the point.
Floisme · 26/09/2021 15:27

I can't see where that post says anything about 'other half' - of either sex.

NoWordForFluffy · 26/09/2021 15:30

@Floisme

I can't see where that post says anything about 'other half' - of either sex.
Me neither. It says 'hand', as in that thing on the end of your arm! No mention of husband or partner.
CreepingDeath · 26/09/2021 15:31

@AnyOldPrion

Can someone please explain to me how the ‘Trans community are the most marginalised community of all.’

From where I stand this ‘community’ has the ear of and funding from governments, political parties, major institutions, schools, big businesses, charities, the police, healthcare, big tech - social media. Laws are in the process and have been changed, mainly at the detriment of other groups. That doesn’t exactly sound marginalised to me.

Oddly enough, I could see that these two apparently opposing statements might both contain some truth. The extremist activists who are pushing for men to have women’s rights, and access to all women’s spaces, on demand, without gatekeeping, do indeed appear to have a great deal of éminence grise type power. They are using it to push for the rights they want, which may not remotely be rights that will benefit the majority of people who are transitioning.

And indeed, because they are turning “trans rights” into a massively contentious issue, which tramples over the rights of others, they are indeed building resentment against the wider trans community.

It’s arguable that a large percentage of the reported rise in “hate incidents” are both part and parcel of, and being created by, their push for “rights” that the vast majority of the population can see are not rights at all. Ironically, they are likely a driver of the marginalisation of transitioning people.

This may be true, and I have a certain amount of sympathy for ordinary trans people caught in the middle of this. But the fact remains that women don't have the luxury of sitting back and waiting to see what the end game here is. Regardless of the motivations, the impact on our hard ones spaces and places in society is the same.

It's up to trans people to form an alternative group to decry what is happening in their name if they don't agree with it.