Starmer on Marr now

[Jaysmith71]

We must have a tolerent debate.... Trans community are the most marginalised community of all

....and 'Only women have a cervix' is, "Something that should not be said."

He will have to get a lot clearer if he's in charge of the Labour party debate on this.

If he clarifies that now to Rosie's benefit he will cause a riot.

What a mess they're in!

"The political purity spiral is designed to make a group smaller and smaller and concentrate power in fewer and fewer hands. Ultimately with the last question to those who are prepared to lie to maintain their place in the progressive religious hierarchy. Nobody actually believes [insert phrase du jour]. It’s a question of allegiance, it’s a purity test."

savageminds.substack.com/p/purity-spirals-and-true-believers

Labour spends too much of its time listening to lobbyists and not enough time listening to the electorate

What a mess they're in!

and What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

@Signalbox

Who is left? Can it really be the Tories? The Tories who are overseeing the placement of males in women's prisons. Who oversee a system where women get locked in prison with males who are therefore given a free opportunity to sexually assault and intimidate them. Who oversee this dystopia for women and girls.

This is so frustrating. The Tories are currently in a position to put clear blue water between themselves and the other parties by unequivocally supporting women’s right to have certain spaces that remain male free. But they won’t even use the exceptions in the Equality Act for the most obvious and necessary situation where they would apply (women’s prisons). This would be such a great example as to how service users can implement the exceptions in practice and show that the Tories are actually serious in their support of women’s single sex services and the EA.

I think this is now the time to really push the Tories on prisons, hospitals and the rest of it

When is your next smear test due, Keir?

@OvaHere

twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1442082718402154498

Total denial of scientific fact.

And he wants to run the NHS.

Sajid saying what we are all thinking.

Well I think that's proof positive that the Tories have seen the way the wind is blowing and decided which way they are going.

I am willing to vote Tory over this I have decided. I have voted against my financial beat interests for many years - as an ideological Socialist - but I won't vote for safeguarding for my daughter to be dismantled. And I think I will now actively vote against it.

I actually never thought I would say this.

I'll write to my (Tory) MP again before the next election just to check that he is TWAM. I assume this stance will only get stronger within the party between then and now.

I am genuinely really sad about this.

I am genuinely really sad about this.

Yep.

@JustSpeculation

Well, maybe he will clarify exactly what he meant..!

He desperately wants not to have to have a view. You have two views which are incompatible. You either have a Carthaginian solution, where one view wipes out the other, or you have an accommodation. His own left wing won't let him accommodate.

Rosie Duffield is not on his left wing.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-says-rosie-duffield-25074709

Keir Starmer says Rosie Duffield trans comments 'not right' and urges 'mature debate'

This is how the mirror have reported it

I can't vote Tory. My hand would cut my other hand off using the front door key as a hacksaw if it so much as touched the stubby pencil with the intent of voting Tory.

I have been open to voting Green since the 80s, if only they would grow up and start offering practical routemaps and not just desired destinations.

I have voted LD in the past, but not in a while since they started electing tossers like Clegg, Swinson and Davey as their leader.

I am Count Binface-Curious.

Puts me in mind of Hilda Ogden, the esteemed Northern philosopher
To paraphrase- " Woman, Keir, Woman" !!!!!!!

Pressed send too soon! Meant to add there are plenty of leftwing members - despite the expulsions - who oppose Self ID.

@CharlieParley

I would like to clarify something here, that many seem unaware of. What Keir Starmer is saying here:

"and wherever we've got to in the law, we need to go further. And we want to go further on that."

Is not a commitment they take lightly, and it is not limited to bringing in self-id.

I engaged with my TWAW Labour MP on this issue before she lost her seat, and she made it very clear that Labour is not satisfied with merely reforming the GRA. They know that self-id without changing the Equality Act 2010 will not bring the desired result.

"Going further with the law" is a commitment, however much they currently hide it, to change the Equality Act 2010 to enshrine gender identity in law as a protected characteristic. There was no clarity exactly how they wanted to do this, whether by joining gender identity to the protected characteristic of sex, or by replacing sex altogether, or by removing gender reassignment and replacing it with gender identity, but the desired result was to make it impossible to use sex-based exceptions in a way that lawfully excludes all males from female-only provisions.

And it's worth pointing out here that Labour created the Gender Recognition Act and during the law writing and all the debates suppressed the voices raising concerns about women's rights.

They even wrote it in such a way that the Genuine Occupational Requirement from the Sex Discrimination Act was disapplied from male GRC-holders.

Before Covid hit, I was in the National Archives in Scotland reading all of the documents, meeting minutes, correspondence between ministers, politicians, trans rights organisations, constituents, faith leaders. They did not ignore the potential impact of the GRA on women's rights accidentally. That was deliberate and the GRA undermining the rights women had in 2004 was at the very least an accepted if not necessarily intended consequence.

Then the Equality Act 2010 put sex as a protected characteristic back onto an equal footing with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. That's why trans rights organisations have been campaigning to change and undermine it since then.

The Labour commitment to trans rights has not changed. They will fudge as much as they can about this, but I go by what my MP told me a few months before the election: Labour would seek to change the Equality Act 2010 to better protect trans people. Any detrimental effects on the sex-based rights of women are incidental to their primary motivation to improve the lives of trans people.

I have seen nothing at all in what Labour has said in the last two years that leads me to conclude they have given up on those plans.

Thanks for highlighting this Charlie, it’s the most significant thing he said during that interview and it seems very clear where Labour are headed on this.

And where is the successor to Screaming Lord Sutch???
Or Tarquin Fin Tim Lin Whim bim lim Bus-stop F'tang F'tang Olè Biscuit Barrel??
Can't be any worse
Politically homeless and despairing here

Great Post Charlie
I can't trust them at all. Sneaks

Luckily we had a MRLP candidate here at the last GE!

The "not right" was where Marr cut him off. He continues by saying "Oh, Andrew, I don’t think that we can just go through various things that people have said"

So I'm prepared to take that as him not wishing to use tweet rows as a mature debate. Which I agree with.

It didn't come over clearly and it's massive fence sitting still and the word "transphobic" probably is as incomprehensible an accusation to him as it is to the majority of the country, but I do think he was trying to stand by Rosie.

Interesting to see a lot of comments under Javid's tweets couldn't care less and go straight to the whataboutery on unrelated issues. Another big chunk taking it as proof he wants trans people to commit suicide or otherwise suffer. A lot of people suddenly giving a toss about intersex people and those with even rarer conditions. Where the hell is the nuance?

So much smoke and mirrors here. Plain English and facts are needed more than ever.

I do think he was trying to stand by Rosie.

If he was really trying to stand by Rosie he could have made an unambiguous statement that it's not transphobic to say that.

Keir Starmer says Rosie Duffield trans comments 'not right' and urges 'mature debate'

We know when they say 'mature debate', what they really mean is ''bodies with vaginas, just shut up whilst we mansplain to you why you're actually wrong by chanting untrue mantras and waving pretty flags, and then when we've finished talking you can just agree that we're right or we'll call you a transphobe, thank you''.

I'd chew off my own hands if I thought there was any chance that I'd vote Tory - but any party that thinks I'll vote for the erasure of women's few and hard-won rights wants its bumps feeling
(Excellent post Charlie , thanks)

@AnyOldPrion

Can someone please explain to me how the ‘Trans community are the most marginalised community of all.’

From where I stand this ‘community’ has the ear of and funding from governments, political parties, major institutions, schools, big businesses, charities, the police, healthcare, big tech - social media. Laws are in the process and have been changed, mainly at the detriment of other groups. That doesn’t exactly sound marginalised to me.

Oddly enough, I could see that these two apparently opposing statements might both contain some truth. The extremist activists who are pushing for men to have women’s rights, and access to all women’s spaces, on demand, without gatekeeping, do indeed appear to have a great deal of éminence grise type power. They are using it to push for the rights they want, which may not remotely be rights that will benefit the majority of people who are transitioning.

And indeed, because they are turning “trans rights” into a massively contentious issue, which tramples over the rights of others, they are indeed building resentment against the wider trans community.

It’s arguable that a large percentage of the reported rise in “hate incidents” are both part and parcel of, and being created by, their push for “rights” that the vast majority of the population can see are not rights at all. Ironically, they are likely a driver of the marginalisation of transitioning people.

perfect comment, thank you.

So, I guess the best case scenario would be that Keir is playing the long game. Trying to get enough votes from the young, brainwashed voters to win Labour the GE. Once he's done that, he'll do what every politician does and do the opposite of what he said in the run up for the votes. Therefore, his plan is to actually uphold women's rights in every way. He just can't let the secret slip yet...

I know that isn't going to happen, would have been a clever tactic, though. If there was enough people left who actually run with this crap, that is.

What a disappointment KS is. Eleven years in opposition and the only real plan on Electing a Leader is rubbished, not even taken seriously.

To heal the UK, STOP talking about Brexit. Re-state the Sex Discrimination Act, take heed of Judge Holdroyds summing up in the case of men in womens prisons.
Vote Tory then get rid of the old guard like ReesMogg and Boris and see what the Red Wall types can do. Some of the Northern Mayors and Council Leaders are making a good difference.
They Can change. They will change if it is in their interest to change.

ps Great respect for Andy Burnham too.