My 14 year old son got into trouble at school yesterday ...

[PippaOwl]

I don't profess to be an expert in all things gender and sex related but I've brought my eldest (now adult) daughter to know her boundaries and I've brought my 14 year old son up to (age appropriately so far!) know how we treat girls, how we behave on social media and all the other stuff surrounding that

A HUGE part of his school experience at the moment is being surrounded by girls and boys who are confused regarding their sexuality and their gender. I've always been very very clear with him on my views - if you have a penis you are a male and if you have a vagina you are female and that's that. I've also explained to him that some people feel trapped in the wrong body and therefore it's their absolute right to express themselves how they want and they deserve respect

Yesterday at school he was in a lesson and got involved in a discussion with a girl. He said to her that girls couldn't be boys and vice versa. She disagreed so a verbal argument ensued. (Not shouting or anything!) She told him to shut up and that he was talking rubbish so he told her to shut up too.

Next thing, he's being taken out of class by the student manager. Who's told him off and issued a 'penalty mark' against him for his views. He argued this and said he was right. She said ... and I quote ... ' the facts are that gender and your sex begin in the brain so you need to be aware of the facts of this before talking rubbish about how your genitals define your sex'

It's all been left now and he has this penalty mark against him (no big deal, but still.. he's a good pupil and he's not had this before!) but am I actually going mad? We have a student manager here who is saying having a penis doesn't make you a man - what your brain tells you does..

I'm unsure how to deal with my son too! Ive told him he must not be rude to anyone and I don't expect him to be telling people to shut up, so he's been told clearly about that. Ive also told him his view is entirely right.

Your thoughts?

What are 'lower genitals'? Are there 'upper genitals' too and what are they?

Your son sounds great OP - and your balanced approach will help unpick this I'm sure.
The comments of the year leader and some of the comments on this show how successful an ideology that trashes, facts, biology and science has become in persuading so many people to believe in things that are just not true.

Glad you’ve decided to enquire further OP. Obviously it’s not ideal the girl in question fled the room in tears, but given how fragile some children have been rendered on this topic, with all the unfortunate insinuations that any gender questioning child must almost invariably be near to suicide and can’t be challenged on anything, means that a perfectly normal level of debate might easily be met with a massive overreaction.

Of course you might discover the penalty mark was given for something reasonable, such as disrupting the lesson, but it’s worth checking, because if it was given for “transphobia” then I’d be objecting strongly until it was removed on point of principle. It would be good for your son to see you standing up for his rights on this, particularly if he it’s the first time he’s received one. Does he seem distressed/frustrated by it? I know my son would be.

@Lettitbee

However personally I can't see anything to be gained by teaching your son to insist to a girl that he knows more than she does about girls!

Trying to play the feminist card here is nonsense, mainly because you have wholly misrepresented the discussion.

OPs son had a discussion with another pupil on the subject of biological sex, which she has presumably “learned” about on Tumblr and from other uninformed sources as she has been so badly misinformed. A discussion about whether it’s possible to change sex is not a boy “insist[ing] to a girl that he knows more than she does about girls”. It’s a rational discussion regarding a well established scientific point between two students, whose sex is irrelevant.

I only have my son's version of events and for that reason, I won't be all guns blazing.

I'm toying mentioning the whole sex / gender thing which is the crux of the matter but not sure whether to initially

Ugh I don't want to be 'that parent' but I also don't want a mark against him because he expressed views - clumsily, knowing him - that are factually correct

@MrsOvertonsWindow

Your son sounds great OP - and your balanced approach will help unpick this I'm sure. The comments of the year leader and some of the comments on this show how successful an ideology that trashes, facts, biology and science has become in persuading so many people to believe in things that are just not true.

It would be worrying if I accepted that some of the perspectives were anything other than an homage to Harry Frankfurt's wellknown essay.

www2.csudh.edu/ccauthen/576f12/frankfurt__harry_-_on_bullshit.pdf

@AnyOldPrion he seems bemused by it more than anything! I can see online what lessons he's in/ house points he's got etc and this intervention mark. As I'd never seen it before I was most surprised! Didn't give a reason - just said awarded for ' staff conversation' and the 'severity' was rated as 'zero.'

So she clearly wanted to mark a punishment but without racking it up to be severe.

@AnyOldPrion and I'm cross that he caused a girl to leave the lesson crying. So I can well imagine him rudely telling her that her views weren't correct. He says he did this and said to her ' you can't change sex' so she told him to shut up and he responded with a 'ha, you shut up'

So yeah, he deserves to be told off for that

@MrsOvertonsWindow you may or may not be aware but honestly, the stuff out there on tik tok, Instagram etc etc is just depressing. I literally can't stop him seeing it either. So we end up having regular chats about truth/ facts / respect for others/ what to do when yet another friend declares themselves as 'pan fluid' etc etc

It's exhausting 😀

Just because she cried doesn't mean he's wrong or has done anything wrong - please don't be too hard on him. These days kids seem to have no resilience or ability to deal with being told they're wrong, so I'd take her tears with a pinch of salt.

I know PippaOwl Social media has opened up so fantastic new avenues and opportunities yet and in other ways so much of it is so dangerous for the young and impressionable. The need for children to be taught critical thinking and how to interrogate the media (especially social media) has never been more important.

Ugh I don't want to be 'that parent' but I also don't want a mark against him because he expressed views - clumsily, knowing him - that are factually correct

Then accept that the penalty mark was for how he expressed his views, not the views he expressed.

@BoredZelda I absolutely will accept that IF his rudeness to this girl was the reason he got it.

But I can't believe it is because the student manager was very cross with him when she told him that 'your sex starts in your brain' and didn't like him telling her he didn't agree

But ... I'll hold fire for now

I hope this girl doesn’t plan on becoming a doctor or vet. The school are utterly failing pupils if they’re teaching gender politics over basic facts.

I don’t think asking why your son got a penalty mark makes you ‘that parent’. Presumably the school would rather you engaged with them regarding your son’s behaviour.

Nor would I be particularly hard on him for telling someone to ‘shut up’ if they had just said it to him. And although it’s unfortunate that the girl was crying, it sounds like on this occasion it wasn’t his fault. My youngest DD cries if she loses an argument but she’s only 7 and I’m sure she’ll grow out of it soon. I certainly don’t want her learning that easy tears leads to her getting her own way all the time or stops people disagreeing with her.

@PippaOwl

I only have my son's version of events and for that reason, I won't be all guns blazing.

I'm toying mentioning the whole sex / gender thing which is the crux of the matter but not sure whether to initially

Ugh I don't want to be 'that parent' but I also don't want a mark against him because he expressed views - clumsily, knowing him - that are factually correct

I wouldn't mention it initially, wait for the reply first.

@dapsnotplimsolls yes I think you're right. I won't mention it at all and just ask what it was for

[quote PippaOwl]@AnyOldPrion and I'm cross that he caused a girl to leave the lesson crying. So I can well imagine him rudely telling her that her views weren't correct. He says he did this and said to her ' you can't change sex' so she told him to shut up and he responded with a 'ha, you shut up'

So yeah, he deserves to be told off for that [/quote]
Her crying is not necessarily his fault though

She told him to shut up and he told her to shut up

They both deserved to be told off for that

i would find it difficult to understand why he felt he had to insist to a female that he knew more than she did about being a female

What have i missed?

He didnt say anything of the sort did he

Why did this thread get moved into the naughty corner?

”She apparently left the lesson in tears so he's clearly upset her with his comments. And I'm not happy about that at all.”

Pfft. Tears can be about emotional manipulation as well as genuine upset. In any case, I wouldn’t be calling out your DS for upsetting someone with his views. That’s essentially reinforcing both the “be kind” and “no debate” BS that’s got us here.

If he actually bullied or belittled her then that’s different, but he shouldn’t be told off for holding to his position in a robust exchange of views.

IMO, if he got the demerit for arguing in class then she deserves one too. He wasn’t talking to himself! If it was for disagreeing with the student manager (God help us) then that’s even less deserving of a penalty mark, particularly if she’s imposing her beliefs on pupils.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Why did this thread get moved into the naughty corner?

Has it?

Fucking ridiculous

What's the naughty corner?

I've honestly been really measured and balanced as has the whole discussion tbh, more or less.

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer that particular bit was made up for sure He wouldn't really know how to tell a female he knew more about being one than her

Also, he's a young ish 14. Rather immature sometimes. Just your average young teen. He certainly doesn't spend time thinking about sex and gender.

Err I dunno about the sex actually. Shan't be asking him that!

pippa

Youre in the naughty corner mate

You mentioned changing sex in your post…

And got moved to feminism sex and gender