My 14 year old son got into trouble at school yesterday ...

[PippaOwl]

I don't profess to be an expert in all things gender and sex related but I've brought my eldest (now adult) daughter to know her boundaries and I've brought my 14 year old son up to (age appropriately so far!) know how we treat girls, how we behave on social media and all the other stuff surrounding that

A HUGE part of his school experience at the moment is being surrounded by girls and boys who are confused regarding their sexuality and their gender. I've always been very very clear with him on my views - if you have a penis you are a male and if you have a vagina you are female and that's that. I've also explained to him that some people feel trapped in the wrong body and therefore it's their absolute right to express themselves how they want and they deserve respect

Yesterday at school he was in a lesson and got involved in a discussion with a girl. He said to her that girls couldn't be boys and vice versa. She disagreed so a verbal argument ensued. (Not shouting or anything!) She told him to shut up and that he was talking rubbish so he told her to shut up too.

Next thing, he's being taken out of class by the student manager. Who's told him off and issued a 'penalty mark' against him for his views. He argued this and said he was right. She said ... and I quote ... ' the facts are that gender and your sex begin in the brain so you need to be aware of the facts of this before talking rubbish about how your genitals define your sex'

It's all been left now and he has this penalty mark against him (no big deal, but still.. he's a good pupil and he's not had this before!) but am I actually going mad? We have a student manager here who is saying having a penis doesn't make you a man - what your brain tells you does..

I'm unsure how to deal with my son too! Ive told him he must not be rude to anyone and I don't expect him to be telling people to shut up, so he's been told clearly about that. Ive also told him his view is entirely right.

Your thoughts?

I had a run in within weeks of my DD starting secondary this September talking to the 'safeguarding lead' about a specific concern my daughter had in relation to a boy in her year accessing changing rooms and toilets for girls. He was happily spouting nonsense about children choosing which gender they identify with and puberty blockers and surgery. Didn't have the energy to follow it up in writing yet, unless/until something else happens.
It's scary, like talking to an evangelical Christian if you're an atheist. No common ground really, but has concrete consequences.

Don't let it drop OP we need to speak up.

children choosing which gender they identify with but they cannot choose which sex they are, or which sex other children perceive them to be.

Who cares what gender someone is, if they're obviously of the opposite sex?

I have received a reply today if anyone is still interested?

I've been wondering what happened!

Yes please!

Honestly - received today

I've copied and pasted and removed his name but it's word for word

Thank-you for your e-mail, I hope that you're well too. I am so, so sorry for the late reply. We've changed our e-mail addresses over to a new domain and, whilst I had set my old ones up to forward, I've just found several in my junk box.

I spoke to Xxx on 24th September because another student had said that he had made some transphobic comments during his Art lesson.

When I spoke to Xxx, he explained that he was having a conversation with his friend during Art about the use of they/them pronouns and how he didn't agree with them and didn't think they were real. I just asked Xxx to be mindful in the future as his conversation had been overheard by another student and it had actually been quite upsetting for them to hear.

I hope that helps clarify. There was no sanction which is why I didn't call at the time but please do let me know if you have any questions.

So I'm not sure how to respond to that. Any tips? I'd like it put to bed but I feel I must politely redress this by return email

I’ve only just seen your original posts, but am very interested as I’m concerned that my DD’s school might punish students speaking about reality as “transphobia”.

She's clearly saying he made transphobic comments. But he was also just saying he didn't believe in they/them as pronouns

So clearly this belief isn't allowed to be expressed

Sorry, was slow in posting.

So no sanction, what does that mean? Is that a detention?

@SlipperyLizard no detention. She's saying she felt it just warranted a chat on this occasion. It registers online as just that - a student conversation - so although flagged on his record as an intervention, she's saying her intervention was just to tell him to not say what he did

I would point out to school that “gender critical” views are a protected belief under the Equality Act, and that although you would expect your son to express such beliefs respectfully, it is unlawful discrimination to punish him merely for expressing them, and he should certainly not be told that he may not express them.

It is no different to telling an atheist that they may not express their disbelief in god in front of students who are religious.

That's helpful @SlipperyLizard and I'll go with an adapted version of that

hmm tricky one OP. That reply is quite well drafted.

At my son's school he founded and led a 6th form debating club and covered this topic 3 times (admittedly I did help him craft the question so it was bullet-proof - it was simply "should the law on trans rights be changed"?).

Students did leave the debate crying (on one occasion I understand) and one student expressed some rather crude views that I would find disrespectful and was asked to pipe down. But debate was not stopped and my son was specifically praised on his final report for having led the process.

It doesn’t sound to me that she’s saying his views are wrong or he shouldn’t have them, but that they caused upset and to be more aware in future.

I’d also suggest that the other student needs to grow a thicker skin, but…

I would be querying the difference between ‘no sanction’ and a ‘penalty mark’.

@PippaOwl

I'd like him to just shut up in future around trans people . That's basic respect and I've been clear I expect him to be respectful and absolutely his views weren't required when she was saying hers.

He says he couldn't help himself. I've told him he's to help himself from now on. It's not worth the upset he's caused to her

I've also said his views aren't wrong though.

Ugh it's a minefield isn't it

I know I'm on an old post, but I'd argue that there is one thing that is more disrespectful than what your son did, and that's talking absolute rubbish and telling someone to shut up when they respond factually.

The girl needs to know that she can identify as a man and be treated as a man in many respects, but that she is a woman and always will be and that if she is transitioning thinking she can change sex she is in for a massive disappointment.

It's taken them forever to craft that reply! The dog ate my homework excuse is just nonsense. Only some from a whole chain got lost in a junk mailbox, my eye.

Just wanted to reiterate my belief that the whole pronouns thing is bullshit, also the fact that transwomen are men (and would be better called trans men) and transmen are women of course. Also (for humans) there are only two sexes, biology matters and believing in gender is supporting outdated stereotypes. Finally, the polarisation the debate has pushed me rightwards, so that personally I no longer give a fuck about trans rights.

Oh hello and welcome back. Good to hear back at last from the student manager even with a weak 'dog ate my homework' / 'found in my junk box' excuse.

It's so long ago that I've probably forgotten but wasn't there some sort of a record made, if not a sanction? And did that record denote some kind of misdemeanour? And if so, you might want to ask why, when you reply.

Being upset by a divergence of opinion isn't confined to one person who happens to overhear a conversation. The idea of imposing pronouns he considers made up and unreal may be equally upsetting to a person such as your son and he is entitled to express that opinion to his friend without censure or recording a black mark against him in a book somewhere.

He was if I remember hauled in pretty sharpish and interrogated though you may not want to make a lot of it, as I recall your cautious approach to making waves that could make his time at the school difficult. Would you want to express polite disagreement with any black mark and go so far as to request it be removed in the circumstances where he did not do any wrong requiring a sanction and he was not rude to anyone, something you would never condone, and you do not anticipate that he will be so in future to any student in the school?

I don't know that I'd make too much of quoting a protected religious or other belief under the Act because that has to amount to a sort of philosophy or system of belief, and not just an opinion or a point of view, and being 'gender critical' was deemed by the Employment Appeal Tribunal to be such a philosophy or system of belief but does that apply to your son, and in any case, the court said, you can't go around harassing people in the workplace even if you have that belief. So the principle is that you still have to mind what you say around people so that you are not harassing or discriminating against those with protected status under the Act. At most a passing reference to recent cases upholding expression of opinion or belief might be as much as you'd want to say.
The Harry Miller case where the policeman went 'to check his thinking' was one where the High Court upheld freedom of expression in the context of a topic of public interest that was being widely discussed and where he'd made some sarcastic and uncomplimentary remarks on twitter.

I've gone back very mildly because I don't want to make a huge thing of this for his sake more than anything. On thinking more, I don't think quoting any cases/ acts will help here .. I'm almost certain she won't be aware of any of it and I don't want to open up dialogue particularly

However of course I've had to say 'something' so she knows where I stand on this so I've just sent the below . It's a bit weak but it'll have to do

Thanks for coming back to me - and no problem re the delay.

Thank you for clarifying. I will have another word with Xxx, now that I’m fully in the picture of what happened. Of course, what he said is scientifically factual but I don’t condone him disrupting lessons and taking up teaching time for this to be dealt with so I’ll be talking to him about this

So he got hauled in to see that teacher not because he had an argument with another pupil or said something mean about another pupil, but because he was having a (friendly) conversation with a student that was overheard by a third student who took exception to what was said. And what was said was nothing bad about any person's present, but he expressed an objection to pronouns.

Does that not strike you as sinister?

I'd be inclined to add 'I am glad to hear that nothing DS said was actually transphobic', but then I'm a tactless type.

@Abitofalark yes, he was hauled out of the classroom for it after the girl left in tears - I believe she has a 'pass' to go to the student manager when she's upset

The whole thing is just ridiculous. He wasn't bullying her - he doesn't even 'know' her - but he was expressing an opinion knowing full well she is they/them.

Where does this stuff end though?

You were probably right not to go back too heavy handed, but if I’d been inclined to compare what he said with anything it wouldn’t have been about religious differences.

It’s MUCH more analogous to a (sane) person disagreeing with a flat-earther about the shape of our planet.