My 14 year old son got into trouble at school yesterday ...

[PippaOwl]

I don't profess to be an expert in all things gender and sex related but I've brought my eldest (now adult) daughter to know her boundaries and I've brought my 14 year old son up to (age appropriately so far!) know how we treat girls, how we behave on social media and all the other stuff surrounding that

A HUGE part of his school experience at the moment is being surrounded by girls and boys who are confused regarding their sexuality and their gender. I've always been very very clear with him on my views - if you have a penis you are a male and if you have a vagina you are female and that's that. I've also explained to him that some people feel trapped in the wrong body and therefore it's their absolute right to express themselves how they want and they deserve respect

Yesterday at school he was in a lesson and got involved in a discussion with a girl. He said to her that girls couldn't be boys and vice versa. She disagreed so a verbal argument ensued. (Not shouting or anything!) She told him to shut up and that he was talking rubbish so he told her to shut up too.

Next thing, he's being taken out of class by the student manager. Who's told him off and issued a 'penalty mark' against him for his views. He argued this and said he was right. She said ... and I quote ... ' the facts are that gender and your sex begin in the brain so you need to be aware of the facts of this before talking rubbish about how your genitals define your sex'

It's all been left now and he has this penalty mark against him (no big deal, but still.. he's a good pupil and he's not had this before!) but am I actually going mad? We have a student manager here who is saying having a penis doesn't make you a man - what your brain tells you does..

I'm unsure how to deal with my son too! Ive told him he must not be rude to anyone and I don't expect him to be telling people to shut up, so he's been told clearly about that. Ive also told him his view is entirely right.

Your thoughts?

As a parent who has had 2 dds brainwashed with this bs, i would 100% complain.

So sick of schools subscribing to this ideology when they should be concentrating on teaching

I do have an issue when the punishment is dished out to the person that isn't in tears. Depth of hurt is not measured in droplets .

I've taken to challenging things like this. I'm currently waiting on a reply about PSHE lessons in 'Same Gender Orientation '
It also shows your son how to approach issues like this.

"talking rubbish about how your genitals define your sex'"

I thought that was exactly how ones sex is defined at birth!

I'm a lost cause aren't I?

Teacher. This doesn't sound like a discussion that either of them should have been having in the middle of an unrelated lesson. So you may well be told the mark is for having an argument in class and disrupting the lesson. That's fair enough. I would challenge the rest though - sounds like he is being told what to think when schools should be showing people how to think for themselves. However , any argument that ends in one person running out of the room in tears and gone on too far and too long.

Yes, if the mark is for disrupting a lesson then it will stand of course. And why this was allowed to go on I have no idea?

I think the role of a student manager must be challenging though. They will have kids coming to them with all sorts of gender issues and I wonder how they deal with it all? I now know that they're not particularly impartial with their views

I feel angry on your son's behalf too.

My DS's head of science told me that saying women have vaginas is transphobic...

I'd clarify what the intervention mark is for, and if the other child got one too.

Gist of your argument back to school….forget genitals- you are wrong to say if you have a vagina you are female and a penis you are male. It is an incomplete and sometimes incorrect definition and can easily be disputed.
BUT they are wrong and the essence of what you are trying to say is correct. Sex does not start in the brain. It starts with chromosomes. They are not teaching correct facts. Whilst a very very small number of people are born with Chromosome abnormalities leading to DSD, those individuals are still either scientifically labelled as male or female based on the various combinations in conditions, and it is the sexual organs that have developed in an atypical way. That has nowt to do with sexuality, or the brain, or gender expression .
It is vital every child understand that sex is defined in chromosomes as it impacts EVERY part of our physiology and health. Without understanding that they could be terribly ignorant with respect to health matters.
There is no scientific evidence for a brain function that determines us being male or female. If they insist there is ask to see their evidence .

I love the idea of getting a biology teacher in the meeting.

Dartford wasn't sure I was going to agree after the first few sentences, but I do, all of it.

There is no way I'd allow them dishing out punishment to my child due to their own religious beliefs that have zero factual basis.

Take a look at the transgender trend and safe schools alliance websites. They provide guidance and templates to address any concerns with gender and how it is approached in schools.

I would request a meeting with them and the biology teacher tbh. If the biology teacher agreed with this rubbish I may as well know as I’d rather a good school because science is important.

I'm angry on his behalf - please do challenge this as that's totally unacceptable!

I think you should teach him not to become embroiled in this nonsense.

Don't feel you have to "give your views" op. Ask questions, let them say enough to be able to question whether and how it fits with their safeguarding, inclusivity of religious belief (eg Muslim women) etc. But don't feel you need to make any statement.

I'd inquire about it.
And make it clear it must be removed from his record if (a) the girl expressing her views wasn't given one for the same reason (rudeness), or (b) it was because they didn't like his opinion on the matter. As he is entitled to it, Politely.

They needed to be treated the same. If they weren't, I wouldn't let it stand.

Good. First step find out why. Then challenge what the student manager said and remind them that your ds is protected by law to hold his views and you can cite the Maya Forstater case. As others have said, there are templates. I challenged my dd’s school last year and they erased evidence of a video they showed children in form in lockdown, talking about people with ‘spirits’. I was too ill to pursue it far at the time. But I was clear it went against DfE guidance.

I think inviting a biology teaching in is a great idea. I totally understand what you're saying, and I've said that same thing myself. The fact is there are NOT just two sexes though, although 98% do as you say fall into a simple XX or XY category, even that isn't simple.

here a really simple version of what I mean.

Gender is a whole other conversation.

I do feel frustration on the whole transphobia labelling though, like this situation would be a really good opportunity to discuss how sex isn't just male or female. Rather than just labelling and disciplining your son which I think is terrible.

Newname you are wrong, of course there are only two sexes! There some people who have a disorder and have something other than xx or xy chromosomes, but they aren’t another sex, they are all either women or men with a disorder of their sexual development. It’s quite offensive to suggest that they are some other sex. There are males who produce small sex cells(sperm) and females who produce large sex cells (eggs). There is nothing else, no other type of sex cell. Of course not all people produce viable sex cells but that isn’t because they aren’t men or women, it’s because they have some kind of medical problem. It would be offensive to suggest that infertile people are some other kind of sex, which seems to be what you are implying.

OP, you may find this DfE guidance useful:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum

"You should not reinforce harmful stereotypes, for instance by suggesting that children might be a different gender based on their personality and interests or the clothes they prefer to wear. Resources used in teaching about this topic must always be age-appropriate and evidence based. Materials which suggest that non-conformity to gender stereotypes should be seen as synonymous with having a different gender identity should not be used and you should not work with external agencies or organisations that produce such material. While teachers should not suggest to a child that their non-compliance with gender stereotypes means that either their personality or their body is wrong and in need of changing, teachers should always seek to treat individual students with sympathy and support."

Key phrases: "evidence based" and the bit about suggesting gender is based on stereotypes. The member of staff should be able to produce evidence of their belief that humans can change brain-based sex.

The WHO also have a good definition of gender and gender identity.

The fact is there are NOT just two sexes though

There ARE only 2 sexes and TRA's have appropriated the sexual development disorders of intersex people, who are all either male or female, to push their agenda as a weird gotcha to explain why adult males who AREN'T intersex want to claim womanhood.

@Sittinginthesand

Newname you are wrong, of course there are only two sexes! There some people who have a disorder and have something other than xx or xy chromosomes, but they aren’t another sex, they are all either women or men with a disorder of their sexual development. It’s quite offensive to suggest that they are some other sex. There are males who produce small sex cells(sperm) and females who produce large sex cells (eggs). There is nothing else, no other type of sex cell. Of course not all people produce viable sex cells but that isn’t because they aren’t men or women, it’s because they have some kind of medical problem. It would be offensive to suggest that infertile people are some other kind of sex, which seems to be what you are implying.

You best right to scientific America and let them know how "offensive" they are too then www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

And offensive to who? In what way are you personally offended why the notion that instead of two defined sexes there is a spectrum? I didn't actually say there are multiple sexes, the implication is that sex isn't as defined as it once was. I actually think it's more offensive to label those who fall into the middle somewhere as having a disorder but then I'm not claiming to speak for them.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

The fact is there are NOT just two sexes though

There ARE only 2 sexes and TRA's have appropriated the sexual development disorders of intersex people, who are all either male or female, to push their agenda as a weird gotcha to explain why adult males who AREN'T intersex want to claim womanhood.

Like I said, gender is another issue altogether. My post simply applies to the fact that many biologists feel that sex isn't just two genders and that it is a spectrum.

It's pretty new to me, but I've been studying reproductive biology for awhile. More in animals than humans but obviously it's a hot topic currently so it comes up a lot.

I guess working with animal who are hermaphrodites or animals that reproduce by parthenogenesis opened my mind.

Gender is a social construct though, that's a whole other thing. Most people fall into make or female regardless of how they identify however that doesn't mean there isn't a spectrum.

You say that you don't want your son upsetting his classmates. Can I suggest that to achieve this, it's best not to make a point of your own insistence on use of terminology, which is currently out of step with mainstream views?

I know this post is going to get jumped on by the same tiny group of people, but if you genuinely care about your children having positive experiences in society, it will be a lot easier for them (and you), if you help them find a way of avoiding making statements that you know other people are likely to disagree with.

People that have a penis, but identify as female, are called girls and women by many people. This is in order to avoid offending them. If you want to make a point of offending people, and teach your children to do the same, then you and they are unlikely to be unpopular and get into difficult situations. Feel free to castigate me but maybe just try to help your child too.

People that have a penis, but identify as female, are called girls and women by many people
Everybody still knows that they are male and in some circumstances that will be very important.