My 14 year old son got into trouble at school yesterday ...

[PippaOwl]

I don't profess to be an expert in all things gender and sex related but I've brought my eldest (now adult) daughter to know her boundaries and I've brought my 14 year old son up to (age appropriately so far!) know how we treat girls, how we behave on social media and all the other stuff surrounding that

A HUGE part of his school experience at the moment is being surrounded by girls and boys who are confused regarding their sexuality and their gender. I've always been very very clear with him on my views - if you have a penis you are a male and if you have a vagina you are female and that's that. I've also explained to him that some people feel trapped in the wrong body and therefore it's their absolute right to express themselves how they want and they deserve respect

Yesterday at school he was in a lesson and got involved in a discussion with a girl. He said to her that girls couldn't be boys and vice versa. She disagreed so a verbal argument ensued. (Not shouting or anything!) She told him to shut up and that he was talking rubbish so he told her to shut up too.

Next thing, he's being taken out of class by the student manager. Who's told him off and issued a 'penalty mark' against him for his views. He argued this and said he was right. She said ... and I quote ... ' the facts are that gender and your sex begin in the brain so you need to be aware of the facts of this before talking rubbish about how your genitals define your sex'

It's all been left now and he has this penalty mark against him (no big deal, but still.. he's a good pupil and he's not had this before!) but am I actually going mad? We have a student manager here who is saying having a penis doesn't make you a man - what your brain tells you does..

I'm unsure how to deal with my son too! Ive told him he must not be rude to anyone and I don't expect him to be telling people to shut up, so he's been told clearly about that. Ive also told him his view is entirely right.

Your thoughts?

@PippaOwl

And to add further ... I'm all for people identifying how they like. For doing what they want. I support this and I would be respectful of any person choosing to identify as male or female. My son is learning from me - slowly - that this is how we behave.

But he won't have brought up a gender debate in art that's for sure! And he's gone back with his point of view. And he's been told off for it - as things stand at the moment.

Have I told him to not speak about this stuff in the future? Yes. I've advised him we need to exercise caution and that we don't always know our audience.

He's not some transphobic idiot - he's a young boy who I like to think is respectful and kind ... and he's just told a simple truth only to be told it's nonsense

I'm glad that you've helped your son understand that many people would find your views offensive. I would find it difficult to understand why he felt he had to insist to a female that he knew more than she did about being a female, other than possibly a general refusal to admit that he might be wrong? Not a great look for anyone really.

I'd add that calling my message 'silly' is also offensive. I guess the tiny group of people who have turned this board into their own echo chamber don't want anyone else to post, so do their best to upset and offend them so we leave you to it. I'm was trying to help you understand how to teach your child not to upset his classmates. You clearly also always know better!

@Lettitbee I actually think 'absurd' suits you better

Were you in the art lesson by the way? Only you're basically making up your own narrative here. I don't even know the facts of what happened myself yet so how the hell you think you do is astonishing

You've taken a balanced, non hysterical op and run with your own agenda.

I've no idea why but can't be arsed to engage with you further so any more comments with you I'll just ignore.

@Lettitbee

Perhaps he thought he knew more about what it is to be male than the girl did, and his arguments are about being a penis-owner and what that means? Just because he was arguing about gender/sex with a girl doesn't mean he was mansplaining femininity/womanhood.

@FreshFancyFrogglette

Mumsnet is very behind the times on this issue. I've wasted too much time already "debating" it on here. Current thinking disputes the fact that your gender is defined by your lower genitalia. We could get into it about your sex, but that's by the by, it's your gender that matters, and that is not defined by your lower genitalia. End of the day, you better teach your kids this or they are guna be called out. Same way racial determinists were called out a few decades ago, or homophobes. If you think having a penis makes you a boy, then u are behind the times, and you'll be on the wrong side of history.

But I have no idea what my gender is. I've read all the descriptions and I don't identify with any of them.

Gender cannot matter because there are too many of them to have any meaning in society. If I was to tell you I am Anxiegender or Cassgender, would you know what I was talking about? Would you even know if I'd made those terms up?

In reality, if I told you that I was Gyragender, most people would roll their eyes and back away, hoping that they wouldn't have to engage with me at all.

OP's son wasn't insisting to a girl he knew more about being a girl than she does. He was telling her that you physically cannot change sex just like boys cannot change into girls. Maybe hamfistedly, maybe not. Who knows- we weren't there but from what is said in OP's post he certainly isn't claiming to be an encyclopaedia on girls. Essentially what you're saying boils down to "be kind" though. Don't dare have or express an opinion that might offend. Not content with indoctrinating our daughters into perpetually "being kind" we have to do the same to our sons- heaven forbid someone should be offended.

OP I would certainly be speaking to the school about this. It's "no debate" in a place of education. Simply telling a child that they're wrong and shutting them down isn't good enough. They're there to teach facts, help create critical thinkers and foster the ability to discuss and reason. They're also there to help build resilience- something all our teens need from the onslaught of shite that gets thrown their ways. I'd be asking for their evidence personally and asking what their biology curriculum is teaching as I'd hope it would be fact not woo.

I can't see anything to be gained by teaching your son to insist to a girl that he knows more than she does about girls

You'd think the girl would know that males and male anatomy weren't included in her sex class then eh?

What is a 'student manager', OP?

@ArabellaScott it's basically someone in a secondary school that is involved in the kids behaviour. They're there for the children to approach and chat through any worries they may have and to get to the bottom of any home issues etc

Basically a friendly, trusted and supportive adult 'go to' for the children. They're not qualified in anything nor are they teachers

Thanks, I see. She doesn't sound friendly, trustworthy or supportive, to be honest. At least she's not a teacher, coming out with total nonsense like that!

But surely she's not supposed to be taking sides on ideological/political issues and berating a student for not sharing her wacky ideas?

They're not qualified in anything nor are they teachers

So someone who should be entirely neutral then and keep their political and gender ideology beliefs out of it.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

They're not qualified in anything nor are they teachers

So someone who should be entirely neutral then and keep their political and gender ideology beliefs out of it.

No need to be neutral.

If you have a dick between your legs, you’re male

If you don’t, your female.

The end.

I would find it difficult to understand why he felt he had to insist to a female that he knew more than she did about being a female

But that's exactly what male TRA's have been doing. Funny how you are blind to that though.

@Whatsnewpussyhat yes I think I agree with this. Because one day you're dealing with a child who's been abused, the next you have someone self harming, next up is someone thinking they're gay and then you end your week with someone struggling with feelings around their sex or gender

So how do you deal with all these different scenarios? Probably by making sure the right support is accessed and being a listening ear. I now know her views on the whole transgender topic and I'm not sure I should know that?

He really really didn't 'insist to a female that he knew more about being a girl than she did'

He honestly wouldn't be able to express this anyway. He doesn't have this sort of thought in his head. There was no 'insisting.'

He got the hump because she told him people could change sex and he said 'no they can't' and it went from there

"We don't all agree on science"

Ok.

@AwaAnBileYerHeid

"We don't all agree on science"

Ok.

[quote PippaOwl]@Whatsnewpussyhat yes I think I agree with this. Because one day you're dealing with a child who's been abused, the next you have someone self harming, next up is someone thinking they're gay and then you end your week with someone struggling with feelings around their sex or gender

So how do you deal with all these different scenarios? Probably by making sure the right support is accessed and being a listening ear. I now know her views on the whole transgender topic and I'm not sure I should know that? [/quote]
They should be able to deal with all these scenarios without imposing their own agenda or bias on the children.

@FluffMagnet

Ask for a meeting with the student manager and head of biology? Might be interesting....

That's a great idea!

We don't all agree on science

No, some people have problems with accepting well established, proven facts. Such as sex is immutable, the earth is round, and humans aren't clownfish.

@Marypoppins19

Poor kids watching this unfold will probably feel that the can’t take part in class discussions now through fear of punishment. That just crazy

It may well be intended to how this chilling effect. That's how people find themselves on the path to authoritarianism.

“The first thing that a totalitarian regime tries to do is to get to the children, to distance them from the subversive, varied influences of their families, and indoctrinate them in their rulers’ view of the world .” (Christian Institute v Lord Advocate, 2016, UKSC 51, para 73.)

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2015-0216-judgment.pdf

The irony is that the girl who stormed off likely also doesn’t believe you can actually change sex. I’m not sure anyone does. It’s coded in our chromosomes and no amount of surgery or feelz changes that. She’s just saying what she’s been socialised to say…#nodebate #bekind #twaw
If he was mean (like me) he would go back in on Monday and tell the girl he was also a girl.
Seriously, do follow up with the school. Your son is holding a belief that is lawful to hold, as confirmed in Maya’s case.

We could get into it about your sex, but that's by the by, it's your gender that matters

Why do you think gender is so important? Why is it that gender has been elevated to such importance? To me gender is utterly irrelevant, regressive and oppressive. To structure society based on subjective internal feelings rather than objective facts is just bizarre.

@pickingdaisies

Well, your starter for ten is to go to the school and complain to anyone and everyone that having gender Critical views is protected in law, and your son's penalty mark must be removed.

This. I'd write and say I want the penalty mark remarked, the student who violated his views -should get one for telling him to shut up. Then I'd go for the student manager and point out which laws they have broken ask for an apology. Paper trail.

Your biological sex doesn't change. Gender is how you identify.

[quote PippaOwl]@ArabellaScott it's basically someone in a secondary school that is involved in the kids behaviour. They're there for the children to approach and chat through any worries they may have and to get to the bottom of any home issues etc

Basically a friendly, trusted and supportive adult 'go to' for the children. They're not qualified in anything nor are they teachers [/quote]
Then they need educating of freedom of speech and the law. He is entitled to his view -

@PronounssheRa

We could get into it about your sex, but that's by the by, it's your gender that matters

Why do you think gender is so important? Why is it that gender has been elevated to such importance? To me gender is utterly irrelevant, regressive and oppressive. To structure society based on subjective internal feelings rather than objective facts is just bizarre.

💯 @PronounssheRa

Gender is completely meaningless, regressive bullshit that reinforces stereotypes and forces us into boxes.

Biological sex is all that matters. It isn't my 'gender identity' that made me endure pregnancy, c-sections and breastfeeding, it isn't my 'gender identity' that required me to have half of my cervix cut out when I had pre-cancerous cell changes. It isn't my 'gender identity' that led to my ex abusing me. It was my biological sex, I am a woman, an adult human female. It isn't possible to identify in and out of that.