My 14 year old son got into trouble at school yesterday ...

[PippaOwl]

I don't profess to be an expert in all things gender and sex related but I've brought my eldest (now adult) daughter to know her boundaries and I've brought my 14 year old son up to (age appropriately so far!) know how we treat girls, how we behave on social media and all the other stuff surrounding that

A HUGE part of his school experience at the moment is being surrounded by girls and boys who are confused regarding their sexuality and their gender. I've always been very very clear with him on my views - if you have a penis you are a male and if you have a vagina you are female and that's that. I've also explained to him that some people feel trapped in the wrong body and therefore it's their absolute right to express themselves how they want and they deserve respect

Yesterday at school he was in a lesson and got involved in a discussion with a girl. He said to her that girls couldn't be boys and vice versa. She disagreed so a verbal argument ensued. (Not shouting or anything!) She told him to shut up and that he was talking rubbish so he told her to shut up too.

Next thing, he's being taken out of class by the student manager. Who's told him off and issued a 'penalty mark' against him for his views. He argued this and said he was right. She said ... and I quote ... ' the facts are that gender and your sex begin in the brain so you need to be aware of the facts of this before talking rubbish about how your genitals define your sex'

It's all been left now and he has this penalty mark against him (no big deal, but still.. he's a good pupil and he's not had this before!) but am I actually going mad? We have a student manager here who is saying having a penis doesn't make you a man - what your brain tells you does..

I'm unsure how to deal with my son too! Ive told him he must not be rude to anyone and I don't expect him to be telling people to shut up, so he's been told clearly about that. Ive also told him his view is entirely right.

Your thoughts?

I'd phone the school and ask to speak to the student support person. If they can't answer your questions, offer to email them the stuff from Transgender Trend.

many biologists feel that sex isn't just two genders don't you mean, sex is absolutely nothing to do with the social construct of gender?

My post simply applies to the fact that many biologists feel that sex isn't just two genders and that it is a spectrum

Sex is just two SEXES, not two 'genders'.
Sex is binary not a spectrum. There is only male or female. No magic 3rd sex or alternate way to reproduce.

'Gender' is sex role stereotypes imposed by society, not special innate feelings. This is of course a spectrum, because presentation is personal preference and personality.

The issue is that a tiny % of people seem to think their 'gender' choices and outward presentation somehow alter their sexed bodies.

You cannot mind over matter yourself into the opposite sex.
No amount of drugs or surgery will make a human change sex.

Other animals aren't human so how they reproduce it change is entirely irrelevant to our species.

As the song says,

"Human beings aren't clownfish"

@Whatsnewpussyhat I was literally about to say humans aren't clownfish 😁

Honestly cannot believe this is where we are in 2021. Back to the realms of flat earthers.

Some really diplomatic advice here. I'm raging on your sons behalf.

As a biologist, humans only have two sexes. Moulds can have more. 😁
But that's the sexes for reproduction. There can be people who don't neatly fit either sex, but they are infertile, and they don't count as a different sex.

Gender, OTOH, is not about biology, but role or perception in society.

As for the school, I'd probably argue with them that if people's sex is in the brain, then what you think and your opinions are valid, and whatever opinion your DS has is equally valid.
If we take it to the limit, actual transphobic opinions are valid too.
He should be allowed to discuss all these issues without being penalised, just as long as he's being respectful.
If the girl told him to shut up, then I'd like to know if she's being held to the same standards.

@Lettitbee People that have a penis, but identify as female, are called girls and women by many people. This is in order to avoid offending them.

Let me offer an alternative hypothesis: People that have a penis are called girls and women by "many people", because "many people" understandably do not wish to take the risk of being abused, no-platformed, insulted, or fired from their jobs for stating or implying the fact that a person who has a penis is, by definition, male, regardless of how they "identify."

@Whatsnewpussyhat

My post simply applies to the fact that many biologists feel that sex isn't just two genders and that it is a spectrum

Sex is just two SEXES, not two 'genders'.
Sex is binary not a spectrum. There is only male or female. No magic 3rd sex or alternate way to reproduce.

'Gender' is sex role stereotypes imposed by society, not special innate feelings. This is of course a spectrum, because presentation is personal preference and personality.

The issue is that a tiny % of people seem to think their 'gender' choices and outward presentation somehow alter their sexed bodies.

You cannot mind over matter yourself into the opposite sex.
No amount of drugs or surgery will make a human change sex.

Other animals aren't human so how they reproduce it change is entirely irrelevant to our species.

As the song says,

"Human beings aren't clownfish"

Sorry you right, I did write genders there, but I did mean sexes. You're right gender is a social construct. (I have a busy household and i wants giving it my full attention but I did make a mistake).

Science is never static, it takes new information evaluates it and tries to come up with evidence based theories.It's fine if you want to i
disagree with the scientific opinions that sex is a spectrum. We don't all agree on science, after all if Covid has taught us anything, we learnt that a lot people just don't understand it (not saying that's the case here), but i am willing to be open minded and listen to what scientists are stating regarding sex.

I would contact the school and explain you are more then happy to accept the penalty mark for him telling someone to shut up and the girls should also receive one but you are not happy for it to be given for him expressing his opinion. See what they say to that and go from there
This would be my stance as well.

I'll also add that biologists don't "feel". We form opinions based on data, at least in our field.
As for gender issues, they're not our field, not really, and while we may have opinions, they are different and individual and not shaped by our work. We should certainly not be called on as experts on gender.

if you genuinely care about your children having positive experiences in society, it will be a lot easier for them (and you), if you help them find a way of avoiding making statements that you know other people are likely to disagree with

Oh dear.

Mumsnet is very behind the times on this issue. I've wasted too much time already "debating" it on here.
Current thinking disputes the fact that your gender is defined by your lower genitalia. We could get into it about your sex, but that's by the by, it's your gender that matters, and that is not defined by your lower genitalia.
End of the day, you better teach your kids this or they are guna be called out. Same way racial determinists were called out a few decades ago, or homophobes.
If you think having a penis makes you a boy, then u are behind the times, and you'll be on the wrong side of history.

but i am willing to be open minded and listen to what scientists are stating regarding sex

I wonder if you really are.

Human sexes, binary. Bar a few rare exceptions due to chromosomal problems.
Sexual orientation, individual driven, non-binary, fluid.
Gender, social construct, a mix of social conditioning and individually driven, non-binary, fluid.

it's your gender that matters

Matters, to who?

Matters when you're a 'man' who doesn't get called for a cervical screening but you still have a cervix?

Matters when you're using you're expecting lesbians to find your penis attractive?

@FreshFancyFrogglette

Mumsnet is very behind the times on this issue. I've wasted too much time already "debating" it on here. Current thinking disputes the fact that your gender is defined by your lower genitalia. We could get into it about your sex, but that's by the by, it's your gender that matters, and that is not defined by your lower genitalia. End of the day, you better teach your kids this or they are guna be called out. Same way racial determinists were called out a few decades ago, or homophobes. If you think having a penis makes you a boy, then u are behind the times, and you'll be on the wrong side of history.

An attempt at satire maybe?

@FreshFancyFrogglette

Mumsnet is very behind the times on this issue. I've wasted too much time already "debating" it on here. Current thinking disputes the fact that your gender is defined by your lower genitalia. We could get into it about your sex, but that's by the by, it's your gender that matters, and that is not defined by your lower genitalia. End of the day, you better teach your kids this or they are guna be called out. Same way racial determinists were called out a few decades ago, or homophobes. If you think having a penis makes you a boy, then u are behind the times, and you'll be on the wrong side of history.

Any battle in history that has won, hasn't wanted to remove hard won rights. Removing the rights of the oppressed is not something to he celebrated

@Coyoacan

if you genuinely care about your children having positive experiences in society, it will be a lot easier for them (and you), if you help them find a way of avoiding making statements that you know other people are likely to disagree with

Oh dear.

Taking that quote by itself does make it sound like bad, I'll give you that. However my point remains - why make a point of offending people? I agree that sometimes we need to risk being 'offensive' to make progress. However personally I can't see anything to be gained by teaching your son to insist to a girl that he knows more than she does about girls! It certainly means offending people and I guess you also need to teach him how to deal with being disliked and upsetting other people.

@Lettitbee don't be silly now. I thought I'd been very clear in my op. I have no agenda and I don't foist my views on my kids. I do however state facts when I'm asked.

Yesterday morning - or any other school morning for that matter - I didn't think to say to my son that he wasn't to express any views on gender or sex issues in his art class 😀 The reason for this? He's never spoken about it before in school. We don't have in-depth at home discussions ... he's a typical mooching teenager. So I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make to me?

I'm not going in all guns blazing as I don't actually feel particularly strongly about it on one level. Having said that though, I'd like to know why my son has been given a penalty mark and if it's for being rude then I back this. If it's for stating a biological fact, I'll politely be asking that it's removed.

I'd be firing off an email stating you want your sons mark removed and pointing out that your so was correct!
The worlds gone mad

I'd be arguing against this under the 'belief' rule.

Maya Forester won her case as the judge decided she was entitled to her beliefs in the gender debate (smart cookie to argue under that rule) that people cannot change sex other people believe you can and they are allowed that belief

I'd be going into school with the judges comments in my hands and asking if they are really discriminating against my child's beliefs?

Of course if the argument got heated he may have a reprimand, but then so should his debating partner.

And to add further ... I'm all for people identifying how they like. For doing what they want. I support this and I would be respectful of any person choosing to identify as male or female. My son is learning from me - slowly - that this is how we behave.

But he won't have brought up a gender debate in art that's for sure! And he's gone back with his point of view. And he's been told off for it - as things stand at the moment.

Have I told him to not speak about this stuff in the future? Yes. I've advised him we need to exercise caution and that we don't always know our audience.

He's not some transphobic idiot - he's a young boy who I like to think is respectful and kind ... and he's just told a simple truth only to be told it's nonsense

Poor kids watching this unfold will probably feel that the can’t take part in class discussions now through fear of punishment. That just crazy

And lots of good advice so thank you for that.

but if you genuinely care about your children having positive experiences in society, it will be a lot easier for them (and you), if you help them find a way of avoiding making statements that you know other people are likely to disagree with

Teaching children the truth should be a given. That a small number of people are uncomfortable with their own sexed body and wish to present a different way. Telling them to keep their mouth shut when being fed lies is absolute bullshit and how we ended up in this bloody mess.

People that have a penis, but identify as female, are called girls and women by many people. This is in order to avoid offending them

They can 'identify' how they like and people can choose to be polite and play along or not. But wanting to be something can't actually change a person's sex, so to tell schoolchildren that genitals don't determine a person's sex is absolutely absurd.