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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My 14 year old son got into trouble at school yesterday ...

351 replies

PippaOwl · 25/09/2021 14:32

I don't profess to be an expert in all things gender and sex related but I've brought my eldest (now adult) daughter to know her boundaries and I've brought my 14 year old son up to (age appropriately so far!) know how we treat girls, how we behave on social media and all the other stuff surrounding that

A HUGE part of his school experience at the moment is being surrounded by girls and boys who are confused regarding their sexuality and their gender. I've always been very very clear with him on my views - if you have a penis you are a male and if you have a vagina you are female and that's that. I've also explained to him that some people feel trapped in the wrong body and therefore it's their absolute right to express themselves how they want and they deserve respect

Yesterday at school he was in a lesson and got involved in a discussion with a girl. He said to her that girls couldn't be boys and vice versa. She disagreed so a verbal argument ensued. (Not shouting or anything!) She told him to shut up and that he was talking rubbish so he told her to shut up too.

Next thing, he's being taken out of class by the student manager. Who's told him off and issued a 'penalty mark' against him for his views. He argued this and said he was right. She said ... and I quote ... ' the facts are that gender and your sex begin in the brain so you need to be aware of the facts of this before talking rubbish about how your genitals define your sex'

It's all been left now and he has this penalty mark against him (no big deal, but still.. he's a good pupil and he's not had this before!) but am I actually going mad? We have a student manager here who is saying having a penis doesn't make you a man - what your brain tells you does..

I'm unsure how to deal with my son too! Ive told him he must not be rude to anyone and I don't expect him to be telling people to shut up, so he's been told clearly about that. Ive also told him his view is entirely right.

Your thoughts?

OP posts:
PaterPower · 25/09/2021 23:42

The naughty corner is “Feminism: Sex and Gender Discussions” - seemingly 99% of threads where even a sniff of anything to do with Trans get moved to here. Regardless of where the OP started it or whether they object to the move.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 25/09/2021 23:43

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer that particular bit was made up for sure grin He wouldn't really know how to tell a female he knew more about being one than her

So the poster was telling porkies

Nooooooooo, tell me it aint so 😩

PippaOwl · 25/09/2021 23:47

I deliberately didn't choose the gender discussion.

Tsk, I can handle the naughty corner though.

OP posts:
Oblahdeeoblahdoe · 25/09/2021 23:56

@JacquelineCarlyle

Just because she cried doesn't mean he's wrong or has done anything wrong - please don't be too hard on him. These days kids seem to have no resilience or ability to deal with being told they're wrong, so I'd take her tears with a pinch of salt.
I'm glad someone else thought it! You're being far more restrained than I would be @PippaOwl I'm looking forward to finding out what the student manager has to say.
CharlieParley · 25/09/2021 23:56

I have a DS the same age, PippaOwl and he's never had a demerit before either. If he came to me with this incident, I would send an email to the student manager saying that I had just noticed the penalty mark, and as he has never had one in his entire time at school, I would like to know what it was for and how I could support the school in ensuring this doesn't happen again.

If you want to open this up to a freedom of thought issue, you can do that later. If you receive an incomplete answer (he was rude to another pupil), I would go back and say, having had a chat with my son about this, I understand he had a difference of opinion with another student. Is he getting punished for arguing, for the opinion he expressed or for disrupting the class? If the first or last, did the other student receive the same penalty? What is the student manager doing to reconcile the children? If it is for the opinion, can you explain why and so on.

Schools can get it very wrong on disciplining kids, and kids can get it really wrong on understanding what the school is doing. Both sides can get it wrong at relaying information to the parents.

So I think you're right in saying you only know half the story. On the face of it though, I am concerned about the remarks made by the student teacher. They seem inappropriate to me.

MonsignorMirth · 25/09/2021 23:58

You mean the Student Prostatehaverager

DodoPatrol · 26/09/2021 00:02

The irony is that the girl who stormed off likely also doesn’t believe you can actually change sex. I’m not sure anyone does.

At 14, after the confusing guff that’s being fed to them, she might well believe that ‘medical science’ can somehow produce an actual sex change. My own fairly bright teen did. Some vague impression that gene therapy was now possible got all muddled up with ‘assigned sex at birth’ and ‘becoming a new gender’, and they just assumed it was a real change from boy to girl or vice versa.

We forget how much they don’t know.

Shelby2010 · 26/09/2021 00:15

@DodoPatrol - agreed. My own nephew asked if men storing their sperm before gender reassignment would be able to use it to get themselves pregnant later……

thirdfiddle · 26/09/2021 00:33

Tears could be result of cognitive dissonances. If someone's just wrong you don't burst into tears. If they've highlighted inherent contradictions in your own belief systems so that you can't find a logical response however...

CharlieParley · 26/09/2021 00:35

No, PippaOwl is right.

Chromosomes are the starting point of sex differentiation, not the end point. The end point are male and female bodies.

If you are born with a penis, you are male-bodied and if you are born with a vagina you are female-bodied.

That some female people are born without a vagina and some male people born without a penis does not make them the opposite sex. It means their body experienced a difference in sex development which was disrupted during the formation of their genitalia.

Yes, you are right that people born with a difference in sex development are still either male or female, and suffer a disruption along the reproductive system pathway of either one or the other sex. But we don't make the assessment of their sex on the basis of their sex chromosomes, we make it on the basis of their bodies.

If genitalia are ambiguous, doctors will look at chromosomes AND genitalia AND gonads to decide which sex may be more beneficial to their wellbeing and future development. This is very rare; in most cases of babies born with a DSD, sex is easily recognised.

A person who has two X chromosomes and is born with male genitalia, is a male-bodied person, i.e. male.

A person who has XY chromosomes and is born with female genitalia, is a female-bodied person, i.e. female.

Even though their development starts out on the opposite pathway with XX and XY chromosomes, the end point is a baby born with genitalia that make it male or female respectively.

BoredZelda · 26/09/2021 00:36

But I can't believe it is because the student manager was very cross with him when she told him that 'your sex starts in your brain' and didn't like him telling her he didn't agree

And there's the problem. You find it easier to believe the nonsense that students are being punished for saying this stuff than to believe your own son is being punished for something that even you admitted he might well have been capable of, on the strength of a second hand conversation that may well have happened but is unlikely to be the reason for his punishment.

CharlieParley · 26/09/2021 00:37

This was in response to Dartfordwarblerautumn.

PippaOwl · 26/09/2021 00:39

I don't really understand the pop you're trying to make at me @BoredZelda tbh.

I've been completely measured. I wasn't there. I'm going to take steps to find out the other side to the issue and then I'll decide what I do from there

Err not really sure how you're twisting that to be honest but clearly you're able to in your own mind

OP posts:
BoredZelda · 26/09/2021 00:41

I've been completely measured.

And yet here you are, posting your theory with half the information, in a section of this site where you know plenty of people will chime in with how terrible it is that kids are being censored this way.

PippaOwl · 26/09/2021 00:45

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 26/09/2021 01:07

BoredZelda

in a section of this site where you know plenty of people will chime in with how terrible it is that kids are being censored this way.

She deliberately placed her thread on the other feminism board.

Someone or someones unknown reported it and got it moved to this section.

I hope you will be apologising.

Abitofalark · 26/09/2021 01:08

You clearly know how to handle this, OP and are right not to get involved in arguing about the subject itself for the reason that people are redefining and / or misusing words to do with sex all over the place according to beliefs (not fact) and it is pointless to get drawn into that territory, when you could keep it at the level of (as I think you intend) objecting to his being punished for expressing fact, opinion or belief.

Coyoacan · 26/09/2021 01:54

I'd add that calling my message 'silly' is also offensive But true. You are the one who says that we should teach our teenagers never to express an opinion on anything for fear of offending someone, all the while setting such a bad example by expressing your own opinion.

MinervaBoudicca · 26/09/2021 05:12

[quote PippaOwl]@Witchesbelazy yeah I don't want to email particularly - because then I have to give my views Grin

But I think I almost can't resist so I'm going to email and just ask what the penalty has been issued for exactly and if I can add support at home. This will then force the student manager to have to tell me what's happened and what it stemmed from.

He's not a liar so I know why but I'll ask then to explain and then take it from there.

I bet he's annoyed her with his views and that's why she's issued it. He's told her she's wrong with the whole 'sex begins in the brain' thing and shes not enjoyed the challenge [/quote]
This seems v sensible. Asking the school to spell out what ‘their perception’ of the difference between sex and gender is might be revealing. If they think ‘male/female’ is all in the head, I would ask what kind of Biology or natural/environmental sciences are being taught?
Tolerance of people expressing their gender is great; repudiating basic facts of science is not - and ultimately creates confusion in young minds. Good luck with it all

Mummyoflittledragon · 26/09/2021 05:35

@CharlieParley

I have a DS the same age, PippaOwl and he's never had a demerit before either. If he came to me with this incident, I would send an email to the student manager saying that I had just noticed the penalty mark, and as he has never had one in his entire time at school, I would like to know what it was for and how I could support the school in ensuring this doesn't happen again.

If you want to open this up to a freedom of thought issue, you can do that later. If you receive an incomplete answer (he was rude to another pupil), I would go back and say, having had a chat with my son about this, I understand he had a difference of opinion with another student. Is he getting punished for arguing, for the opinion he expressed or for disrupting the class? If the first or last, did the other student receive the same penalty? What is the student manager doing to reconcile the children? If it is for the opinion, can you explain why and so on.

Schools can get it very wrong on disciplining kids, and kids can get it really wrong on understanding what the school is doing. Both sides can get it wrong at relaying information to the parents.

So I think you're right in saying you only know half the story. On the face of it though, I am concerned about the remarks made by the student teacher. They seem inappropriate to me.

This is a brilliant approach.
AnyOldPrion · 26/09/2021 05:43

So according to the record the penalty mark was for “staff conversation”. That sounds more likely it was given for talking back to the student manager than for making the girl cry.

What is a student manager anyway?

If the claim comes back that he was rude to the student manager, the situation and power dynamics are completely different. Your son was in the very difficult situation of being told something about basic science that he knew or strongly suspected to be very far from correct. It’s far less likely he was rude to the SM. I doubt he told her to shut up.

I think I would take the approach CharleyParley outlined (pasted below). I think if he has effectively been given this mark because of a disagreement with a student manager who was telling him something incorrect, then there’s a further problem that a person in the school, who has power over vulnerable students, is propagating an incorrect view, which could have negative consequences for other students. Even if it wasn’t for the potential risk from the medical establishment and puberty blockers (worst case scenario for many girls) it’s still the equivalent of a member of staff taking aside a student and chastising them for believing in evolution and informing him that creationism is the appropriate view, which is 100% not okay.

Take all the fire out of this (though arguably belief in sexed brains has more potential negative consequences). If you suspected the student manager had indeed taken him outside and told him he was wrong about evolution and told him the creationist view was correct, what would you do then?

I think, beyond the penalty mark, I would be concerned about this person having power over children, while she continues to hold and express a false view around a subject that is very controversial, for a number of reasons. And the more the conversation in this thread has gone on, the more I think I’d want to be questioning the school, not over my son’s actions, but over those of the student manager, who (according to your son) didn’t take your son out to chastise him over being rude, but to lecture him over his perfectly reasonable views. Which should definitely not go unchallenged, if true.

CharleyParley’s outlined plan for finding out:

”If he came to me with this incident, I would send an email to the student manager saying that I had just noticed the penalty mark, and as he has never had one in his entire time at school, I would like to know what it was for and how I could support the school in ensuring this doesn't happen again.”

”If you want to open this up to a freedom of thought issue, you can do that later. If you receive an incomplete answer (he was rude to another pupil), I would go back and say, having had a chat with my son about this, I understand he had a difference of opinion with another student. Is he getting punished for arguing, for the opinion he expressed or for disrupting the class? If the first or last, did the other student receive the same penalty? What is the student manager doing to reconcile the children? If it is for the opinion, can you explain why and so on.”

JustSpeculation · 26/09/2021 06:22

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

It would be worrying if I accepted that some of the perspectives were anything other than an homage to Harry Frankfurt's wellknown essay.

www2.csudh.edu/ccauthen/576f12/frankfurt__harry_-_on_bullshit.pdf

Thank you very much for this. I hadn't come across this essay before. I think the word "humbug" is an excellent one that needs resurrecting!

TolkiensFallow · 26/09/2021 06:34

I do have a massive problem with censuring free speech by pointing at someone and labelling them transphobic! People are entitled to debate.

ValancyRedfern · 26/09/2021 06:39

OP your measured approach sounds excellent. Please don't let this go until you've got to the bottom of it. Teachers like me need parents like you!

WarriorN · 26/09/2021 09:26

Please contact Safe school alliance U.K.

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