Women's Wellbeing in Prisons

[DisgustedofManchester]

Apologies if this is a repost as I know how many people in these fora are concerned about the health and well being of women in prison. Since it happened in 2019 I am sure there is a long thread about it but David Lammy rightly brought it to light again this week. pre and ante natal care in prisons is pretty disgusting, its almost as though most people do not care.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-58646499

[TalkingtoLangClegintheDark]

@catzwhiskas

Ex judge on BBC Today this morning saying that he didn’t usually ask about pregnancy status before sentencing but would expect defence to bring up any issues. Also said that by not sentencing women who may be pregnant, it would give a message to others that they could commit crimes with impunity. Doesn’t seem to worry about the rapists or paedofiles claiming transgender status left free to roam..

Yeah, huge HUGE double standard there.

And who’s actually more vulnerable? A male person who identifies as a woman, who may well be a sex offender, or a pregnant woman and her unborn child?

Too close to call?

[EmbarrassingAdmissions]

Just imagine the same resources, time, energy, interest that are allocated to male people being allocated to female people.

The financial resources dedicated to maintaining this immersive fiction are astonishing. I don't see any budget allocation for the people who are harmed by it.

[EmbarrassingAdmissions]

That poor young woman: Prison guards, but not mother, get counselling after baby dies in cell

Exclusive: Report from the ombudsman found that the guards who failed to help were offered bereavement support but not the grieving teenager

shockingly, the PPO report found: “Police and coroner involvement immediately after Baby A’s death, and a lack of understanding by the prison of the role of the local child death review team, meant Ms A did not receive the routine bereavement and practical support that would normally be provided.”

McAllister said Ms A was regarded as having a “bad attitude” rather than a vulnerable 18-year-old who refused care because she was frightened her baby would be taken away.

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/25/prison-guards-but-not-mother-get-counselling-after-baby-dies-in-cell

[NiceGerbil]

Where is OP?

OP have you found this thread useful?

Any further thoughts?

I posted a charity and there are other things you can do I'm sure to get involved in this issue. Did you find that info useful?

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

extract

Women prisoners who call transgender prisoners by the wrong pronoun could be punished with time added on to their sentence, the Government has warned.

Deliberately referring to a trans woman as “he” or “him” may be treated as breaching a prison rule against “using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour” and could be brought before an Independent Adjudicator – a visiting judge – who has the power to award added days.

The threat will fuel a debate over the policy of holding male-to-female transgender prisoners in women’s jails. In 2019 there were 34 transgender women who were still legally male detained at the 12 women’s prisons in England and Wales.

The punishment warning was sounded by Justice Minister Lord Wolfson of Tredegar QC, who said: “Incidents where a prisoner uses incorrect pronouns for another prisoner will be considered on a case-by-case basis, in line with the Prisoner Discipline Procedures policy and the Prison Rules.

“Prisoners may sometimes make an honest mistake in relation to pronouns and disciplinary action would not usually be appropriate in those circumstances. However, if an officer deems it appropriate to place a prisoner on report, the rule against ‘using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour’ – Prison Rule 51(20) – may apply.

“The adjudicator will weigh each incident on its own merits. The policy stipulates that an offence motivated by another person’s protected characteristic(s) under the Equality Act 2010 is an aggravating factor and may merit referral to an Independent Adjudicator.”

Official guidelines state that disciplinary cases are normally heard by a prison governor, and are only referred to an Independent Adjudicator where there is the possibility of days being added on to the sentence – which is the most severe punishment available.

Under Prison Service policy, any prisoner who has legally changed their gender, and been granted a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) to prove it, will automatically be sent to a jail appropriate to their new gender. A prisoner who identifies as the opposite sex but does not have a GRC will initially go a prison for their old, legally-recognised gender, but may later move between the male and female estates following a case-by-case assessment. This summer the High Court upheld the policy, dismissing a claim from a female prisoner that it placed her at risk to be detained with fellow prisoners who were still biologically male.

Lord Wolfson added: “The Ministry of Justice and Her Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service are committed to advancing equality, eliminating discrimination, harassment and victimisation (including based on someone’s religion or belief, or gender reassignment status, as defined in sections 7 and 10 of the Equality Act 2010) … As part of this, we ensure that all prisoners are treated fairly and in a way that respects their rights, and encourage them to act in a way that is respectful and considerate of others.”

insidetime.org/women-face-punishment-for-using-wrong-pronouns/

[yourhairiswinterfire]

This is abuse.

Placing members of the opposite sex in women's prison, even if they're a rapist/sex offender, leaving the women walking on eggshells and living in constant fear of being raped/sexually assaulted by a male. When a large number of these women will already be abuse victims.

Gaslighting, compelled speech, then threatening to punish the women by keeping them in that awful situation for longer if they don't play along with a (dangerous) lie.

There are some sick, depraved sadists in charge. Honestly, something inside them is fucking broken.

“The Ministry of Justice and Her Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service are committed to advancing equality, eliminating discrimination, harassment and victimisation (including based on someone’s religion or belief, or gender reassignment status

What a shame you obviously aren't committed to keeping vulnerable women safe whilst they're locked up and in your care. Evil bastards.

[Artichokeleaves]

As part of this, we ensure that all prisoners are treated fairly and in a way that respects their rights, and encourage them to act in a way that is respectful and considerate of others.”

Ah so that was it with Karen White. White wasn't 'encouraged' enough to be respectful and considerate of others and not use their access to female people in order to enjoy continuing to offend .

Women prisoners who call transgender prisoners by the wrong pronoun could be punished with time added on to their sentence, the Government has warned.

No. Absolutely bloody outrageous, this is way past the line now.

White's victims and the other victims of male prisoners in their estate have no responsibility to be respectful and subordinate to those male prisoners' feelings and wishes. This is state supported abuse.

[Nachthex]

'All prisoners are treated fairly ....' (Wolfson, above) my arse they are.

This issue of males with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment (MWTPCOGR) in women's jails is one of the aspects of this horror show that worries me most. Those poor women cannot remove themselves from this appalling situation. Beyond belief that any civilised country would treat women like that.

And from what I've read, women prisoners have already been punished for this or are aware and altering their behaviour. I think it was a piece I read about a MWTPCOGR using showers with the women and they knew they couldn't complain else they'd be punished by withdrawal of privileges etc.

Disgusting, disgusting, disgusting.

[WomaninBoots]

Interesting.

[BernardBlackMissesLangCleg]

the thread is being heavily monitored then? but the monitors don't want to come and explain why it's OK to lock women up with rapists and then punish the women when they're able to tell that the rapists are men?

Come on, justify that

[WomaninBoots]

And tell me why these people can't go in a third space.

[WomaninBoots]

Why do they NEED women?

[NecessaryScene]

It would certainly seem if they're at great risk of being "misgendered" (whatever that is) it might not be totally safe for them... Sounds painful.

[WomaninBoots]

Indeed. If misgendering is such appalling violence I do not understand why someone would want to be in a space where they risk being subjected to it. Surely a trans wing in a male prison would be much safer in that regard?

It is almost as if the controlling and and subjugation of women is important for some reason?

[CharlieParley]

Punishing female prisoners for misgendering is not covered by those harassment rules. They are not service providers or staff. They are not service users. They are imprisoned and their rights to being imprisoned only with other female prisoners are infringed upon here.

Misgendering is not a crime in and of itself, and the UK GovernmGovernment at the time of writing the Gender Recognition Act stressed that a GRC did not put other people who clearly know what sex someone is by looking at them under an obligation to go along with the legal fiction it created. Those obligations were placed only upon people who found out about someone's biological sex in the course of their work.

Are women in prison required to affirm another prisoner's belief that she is the queen and does time get added to their sentence if they don't? If no, then there's no justification for female prisoners being punished for not going along with male prisoners' belief that they're female.

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

Let's talk about pronouns. When we speak to people in English, we have one pronoun and it is unisex: you.

So any 'misgendering' can only consist of one person overhearing a second person speaking about them, without using their preferred terms, to a third party. Was it back in June that Laurie Penny said that if a child saw a penis in a spa, she should just look away? If a child should do that for a penis, why should the same not apply to an adult transgender prisoner?

There was once a time, in this country, when you could be imprisoned for speaking about the aristocracy or the monarchy with insufficient respect. (Lèse-majesté legislation and treason legislation) In other countries, you still can face such penalties, and this is viewed as a human rights issue. But these days, I think there is universal agreement in the UK that no-one should be imprisoned for not referring to the Queen as Her Majesty, yes?

So, when did we agree that if someone identifying as trans didn't like what they overheard, the person who'd offended them could lose their freedom for it? This isn't about respecting the human rights of anyone, this is the creation of a brand new form of aristocracy with a complex system of titles, and the power to punish the plebs if they don't follow the etiquette!

The Queen should not have that power. None of her family should. And certainly nobody else should, either!

[TheABC]

How can we stop this from happening?
Seriously?

[WomaninBoots]

Excellent point Purgatory.

Good question, ABC.

[ArabellaScott]

@CharlieParley

Punishing female prisoners for misgendering is not covered by those harassment rules. They are not service providers or staff. They are not service users. They are imprisoned and their rights to being imprisoned only with other female prisoners are infringed upon here.

Misgendering is not a crime in and of itself, and the UK GovernmGovernment at the time of writing the Gender Recognition Act stressed that a GRC did not put other people who clearly know what sex someone is by looking at them under an obligation to go along with the legal fiction it created. Those obligations were placed only upon people who found out about someone's biological sex in the course of their work.

Are women in prison required to affirm another prisoner's belief that she is the queen and does time get added to their sentence if they don't? If no, then there's no justification for female prisoners being punished for not going along with male prisoners' belief that they're female.

Yes, this.

Misgendering is not a crime

So how the fuck is this possible?

What can we do?

[TalkingtoLangClegintheDark]

@TheABC

How can we stop this from happening?
Seriously?

Good question.

[TalkingtoLangClegintheDark]

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Let's talk about pronouns. When we speak to people in English, we have one pronoun and it is unisex: you.

So any 'misgendering' can only consist of one person overhearing a second person speaking about them, without using their preferred terms, to a third party. Was it back in June that Laurie Penny said that if a child saw a penis in a spa, she should just look away? If a child should do that for a penis, why should the same not apply to an adult transgender prisoner?

There was once a time, in this country, when you could be imprisoned for speaking about the aristocracy or the monarchy with insufficient respect. (Lèse-majesté legislation and treason legislation) In other countries, you still can face such penalties, and this is viewed as a human rights issue. But these days, I think there is universal agreement in the UK that no-one should be imprisoned for not referring to the Queen as Her Majesty, yes?

So, when did we agree that if someone identifying as trans didn't like what they overheard, the person who'd offended them could lose their freedom for it? This isn't about respecting the human rights of anyone, this is the creation of a brand new form of aristocracy with a complex system of titles, and the power to punish the plebs if they don't follow the etiquette!

The Queen should not have that power. None of her family should. And certainly nobody else should, either!

Great post, Potholes.

[Artichokeleaves]

@WomaninBoots

And tell me why these people can't go in a third space.

They don't want to.

Now weigh up why that 'don't want' is receiving absolute respect and compliance by all, but women's 'don't want, and can't and some of us are being fucking sexually assaulted over here!!!' is dismissed as wholly unimportant.

Sexism on crack. Misogyny on crack. And that is all now.

[PlonitbatPlonit]

A really good event on all these themes is coming up in London - A Woman's Place is NOT in prison, on 27 October. Line up is Frances Crook (Chief Exec, Howard League for Penal Reform), Jo Phoenix, Lucy Baldwin, Frances Barber reading words of FDJ - the claimant in the case against the Secretary of State for Justice, Rosie Duffield MP, Allison Bailey, Catia Freitas, Charlie Weinberg. I think it's going to be a fantastic night www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/a-womans-place-is-not-in-prison-tickets-172327715837

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

More news

The Government is spending £150million at women’s jails on 500 new cells which can be used for transgender lags.

They will be single occupancy with ensuite loos and showers. But some will enable women to have their kids overnight to prepare for life at home.

Tory Baroness Scott of Bybrook confirmed the cells plan to support “transgender needs” as required by law and jail policy.

In July, a High Court Judge ruled holding transgender women in female jails is lawful because a ban would ignore their right to live as their ­chosen gender.

Continues: www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/150million-give-transgender-prisoners-new-25230999