Women's Wellbeing in Prisons

[DisgustedofManchester]

Apologies if this is a repost as I know how many people in these fora are concerned about the health and well being of women in prison. Since it happened in 2019 I am sure there is a long thread about it but David Lammy rightly brought it to light again this week. pre and ante natal care in prisons is pretty disgusting, its almost as though most people do not care.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-58646499

[ScreamingMeMe]

Oh no @DisgustedofManchester and @anaily have you got lost?

[PrawnofthePatriarchy]

Not a peep from the anti woman posters who were so vehement at the start of the thread. Hmm...

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

I think I'd be more likely to find someone willing to answer if I went to Mars.

[Helleofabore]

Was that another tumbleweed rolling past?

[Alekto]

Still crickets I see. So surprising.

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

Getting chilly. I'll start a campfire.

[ScreamingMeMe]

[Helleofabore]

I imagine the pure 'glee' that people like Tom Harwood and posters such as barley who posted that exact claim on another thread about 'no sexual assaults from male prisoners being incarcerated with women since 2019' feel in saying that.

Then I imagine just how invisible the women who either have reported and been ignored, or who don't bother reporting it to the MoJ but are telling other organisations about it feel.

Because we KNOW just how much women's reports of sexual assaults mean to the authorities who are in charge of protecting women. You only have to look at the prosecution rates to see the value women's reports have.

[Alekto]

Yes, I see. I'll give it another bump then, in the hope Disgust manages to find his or her way back to the thread.

Sorry, haven't read the full thread and am at work so can't do so right now, but I was horrified to see Julie Bindel tweet this yesterday:

" I am flabbergasted to hear you say that "since 2019 when the system was strengthened" WRONG, "there has not been a single sexual assault in a woman's prison by a transwoman" WRONG! I have heard from 2 women directly, and several others have reported to outside agencies."

twitter.com/bindelj/status/1483031421027561479?s=21

They're still just callously sacrificing imprisoned women to these fucking men!

[Waitwhat23]

I do wonder sometimes if @disgustedofmanchester or @anaily or any of the other regular anti-women posters ever feel embarrassment at their inane posts being so comprehensively debunked. I suspect not - I'm pretty sure that they just plop their nonsense and then unwatch the post/ignore email notifications to avoid any responses. It's an odd thing to do because the excellent responses (particularly from OhHolyJesus and PurgatoryOfPotholes) are very informative for the lurkers.

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

Our OP has lost his/her way back to this thread.

On the 9th of January, I saw him/her saying on another thread that s/he thinks we should be more concerned on this forum about the number of "cis women" assaulting women in prisons. I totally agree that the number of sexual assaults should be zero, and I invited him/her back here to discuss it. As you can see, I provided statistics for our discussion!

Disgusted did not manage to get back.

Today I've read this: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10406351/I-sexually-assaulted-transgender-rapist-womens-jail.html

extract

Cheryle's statements formed part of the Crown Prosecution Service's case against White, which saw her admit two sexual assaults on female prisoners at Leeds Crown Court in October 2018.

A judge, who described White as a 'predator', ordered the remaining two charges, including the assault on Cheryle, to lie on file. White was also convicted of raping another two women outside of jail, as well as wounding.

So, over the course of three months in 2017, KW is known to have committed at least four sexual assaults in one women's prison in England, equalling the number of sexual assaults in all female prisons in England and Wales for the whole of 2013.

It may very well be more than four. (I said on another thread some time ago that I suspected KW had committed more than two assaults in that prison!) This was the impact of just one male prisoner in one prison.

So surely sexual assaults against female prisoners committed by male prisoners is also a subject worthy of discussion on a feminist forum?

[Alekto]

What's occurring?

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

Hello! @DisgustedofManchester

I've seen you posting on other threads today, claiming no-one cares about prisons, but you still haven't come back to this thread!

This is a briefing paper published by the Commission in Sex in Prison, established by the Howard League for Penal Reform to undertake the first ever review of sex inside prison.

//www.howardleague.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Coercive-sex-in-prison.pdf

This is a table from it. Observe the number of assaults recorded in the women's estate in 2012 and 2013. Please explain to me how placing male prisoners in the women's estate has improved these numbers.

[User983590521]

Great.
So some of that building work can be trans units attached to women's prisons but not communicating with the areas for female prisoners.
That would recognise TW's chosen gender which, of course, is not their sex.

Also, how come we all know about Equality Act exceptions but that High Court judge apparently doesn't know?

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

More news

The Government is spending £150million at women’s jails on 500 new cells which can be used for transgender lags.

They will be single occupancy with ensuite loos and showers. But some will enable women to have their kids overnight to prepare for life at home.

Tory Baroness Scott of Bybrook confirmed the cells plan to support “transgender needs” as required by law and jail policy.

In July, a High Court Judge ruled holding transgender women in female jails is lawful because a ban would ignore their right to live as their ­chosen gender.

Continues: www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/150million-give-transgender-prisoners-new-25230999

[PlonitbatPlonit]

A really good event on all these themes is coming up in London - A Woman's Place is NOT in prison, on 27 October. Line up is Frances Crook (Chief Exec, Howard League for Penal Reform), Jo Phoenix, Lucy Baldwin, Frances Barber reading words of FDJ - the claimant in the case against the Secretary of State for Justice, Rosie Duffield MP, Allison Bailey, Catia Freitas, Charlie Weinberg. I think it's going to be a fantastic night www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/a-womans-place-is-not-in-prison-tickets-172327715837

[Artichokeleaves]

@WomaninBoots

And tell me why these people can't go in a third space.

They don't want to.

Now weigh up why that 'don't want' is receiving absolute respect and compliance by all, but women's 'don't want, and can't and some of us are being fucking sexually assaulted over here!!!' is dismissed as wholly unimportant.

Sexism on crack. Misogyny on crack. And that is all now.

[TalkingtoLangClegintheDark]

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Let's talk about pronouns. When we speak to people in English, we have one pronoun and it is unisex: you.

So any 'misgendering' can only consist of one person overhearing a second person speaking about them, without using their preferred terms, to a third party. Was it back in June that Laurie Penny said that if a child saw a penis in a spa, she should just look away? If a child should do that for a penis, why should the same not apply to an adult transgender prisoner?

There was once a time, in this country, when you could be imprisoned for speaking about the aristocracy or the monarchy with insufficient respect. (Lèse-majesté legislation and treason legislation) In other countries, you still can face such penalties, and this is viewed as a human rights issue. But these days, I think there is universal agreement in the UK that no-one should be imprisoned for not referring to the Queen as Her Majesty, yes?

So, when did we agree that if someone identifying as trans didn't like what they overheard, the person who'd offended them could lose their freedom for it? This isn't about respecting the human rights of anyone, this is the creation of a brand new form of aristocracy with a complex system of titles, and the power to punish the plebs if they don't follow the etiquette!

The Queen should not have that power. None of her family should. And certainly nobody else should, either!

Great post, Potholes.

[TalkingtoLangClegintheDark]

@TheABC

How can we stop this from happening?
Seriously?

Good question.

[ArabellaScott]

@CharlieParley

Punishing female prisoners for misgendering is not covered by those harassment rules. They are not service providers or staff. They are not service users. They are imprisoned and their rights to being imprisoned only with other female prisoners are infringed upon here.

Misgendering is not a crime in and of itself, and the UK GovernmGovernment at the time of writing the Gender Recognition Act stressed that a GRC did not put other people who clearly know what sex someone is by looking at them under an obligation to go along with the legal fiction it created. Those obligations were placed only upon people who found out about someone's biological sex in the course of their work.

Are women in prison required to affirm another prisoner's belief that she is the queen and does time get added to their sentence if they don't? If no, then there's no justification for female prisoners being punished for not going along with male prisoners' belief that they're female.

Yes, this.

Misgendering is not a crime

So how the fuck is this possible?

What can we do?

[WomaninBoots]

Excellent point Purgatory.

Good question, ABC.

[TheABC]

How can we stop this from happening?
Seriously?

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

Let's talk about pronouns. When we speak to people in English, we have one pronoun and it is unisex: you.

So any 'misgendering' can only consist of one person overhearing a second person speaking about them, without using their preferred terms, to a third party. Was it back in June that Laurie Penny said that if a child saw a penis in a spa, she should just look away? If a child should do that for a penis, why should the same not apply to an adult transgender prisoner?

There was once a time, in this country, when you could be imprisoned for speaking about the aristocracy or the monarchy with insufficient respect. (Lèse-majesté legislation and treason legislation) In other countries, you still can face such penalties, and this is viewed as a human rights issue. But these days, I think there is universal agreement in the UK that no-one should be imprisoned for not referring to the Queen as Her Majesty, yes?

So, when did we agree that if someone identifying as trans didn't like what they overheard, the person who'd offended them could lose their freedom for it? This isn't about respecting the human rights of anyone, this is the creation of a brand new form of aristocracy with a complex system of titles, and the power to punish the plebs if they don't follow the etiquette!

The Queen should not have that power. None of her family should. And certainly nobody else should, either!

[CharlieParley]

Punishing female prisoners for misgendering is not covered by those harassment rules. They are not service providers or staff. They are not service users. They are imprisoned and their rights to being imprisoned only with other female prisoners are infringed upon here.

Misgendering is not a crime in and of itself, and the UK GovernmGovernment at the time of writing the Gender Recognition Act stressed that a GRC did not put other people who clearly know what sex someone is by looking at them under an obligation to go along with the legal fiction it created. Those obligations were placed only upon people who found out about someone's biological sex in the course of their work.

Are women in prison required to affirm another prisoner's belief that she is the queen and does time get added to their sentence if they don't? If no, then there's no justification for female prisoners being punished for not going along with male prisoners' belief that they're female.