Women's Wellbeing in Prisons

[DisgustedofManchester]

Apologies if this is a repost as I know how many people in these fora are concerned about the health and well being of women in prison. Since it happened in 2019 I am sure there is a long thread about it but David Lammy rightly brought it to light again this week. pre and ante natal care in prisons is pretty disgusting, its almost as though most people do not care.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-58646499

[Helleofabore]

Very clear post Potholes.

I look forward to @DisgustedofManchester & @anaily replying. Along with what they, personally, have done to help the plight of females in prison- safety and well being.

Maybe, just maybe, they will have something to say also then, about the way at least one prison in the USA has dealt with the potential of PIV sex from males in the female prison estate. You know. Where they announced to the females that the males were coming and handed out condoms?

Like that is adequately providing care to vulnerable women.

I look forward to their replies…. But I won’t hold my breath as I have learned from old that those questions will simply go ignored. Because there are some posters on the Internet that have only the intention to admonish, shame and demonise women who don’t agree with their opinions.

But I live in hope.

[Artichokeleaves]

Excellent post. I await answers with interest.

[happydappy2]

One thing I've been wondering about, if a trans woman with a GRC in a womens prison, has sex with an inmate resulting in pregnancy. Woman gives birth around the time of coming to the end of her sentence and is released...TW claims it is against their human rights to be parted from the baby and demands to be housed in a Mother & Baby unit inside the womens prison, with the baby... would this be facilitated? Of course it would mean removing the baby from its natural Mother, but if TW are W then this is where this ideology leads us.
If the Mother is deemed unfit to care for the baby, could the TW claim to be mother? It is mind boggling but the prisons situation is so fucked up one wonders what else could happen.

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

Whatever they reply, they've helped my plight. It is of immeasurable benefit to me to actually feel able to say all that. I normally just mutter variants upon it at my phone screen.

It's been very freeing not to censor myself!

[teawamutu]

Gc can raise tens of thousands for men kicked out of a course but can't raise a penny for prison services.

I dug for the KPSS campaign, as it happens.

And James Esses.

And Maya.

And numerous others.

If it affects women and children and it needs funding and I can spare the cash, I do. Like loads of us on here.

Wonder how often our TRA friends dig into their own pockets?

[ArabellaScott]

Thank you for that excellent post, Pots.

[OhHolyJesus]

You would hope Happy, in that scenario, that the mother and child would stay together and the mother/child bond would be respected and the fact she had met the terms of her sentence, she would be free to go live her life with her child. It's funny to look back at how I used to think that was something that was likely. Funny, not funny.

Given the 'false rights' (a phrase from a WHRC webinar) that are now in play I don't think we can trust any of that would happen as a matter of common sense.

For anyone interested in finding out more about the prison protests - that have included the message about women getting pregnant whilst inside a women only prison (how does this happen you have to wonder, in the past you might have expected the male guards to be responsible...) - I would urge you to check out Sovereign Women Speak and all the work they are doing, and Keep Prisons Single Sex obviously for the U.K. version.

www.sovereignwomencircle.com/?fbclid=IwAR1a2aS1ceLECItPVymhbf0533i6KrEOcqDZfJtLjhIyJrdvR9Bz-K07Zp0

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

I am, unfortunately, out at the moment, so I don't have my spreadsheet data to hand, so you have to take the following on trust. I'll correct it later on in the evening. The average number of women incarcerated each year in England and Wales is a bit over 3000. The last headcount of incarcerated transwomen was 129.

If we moved them all to the women's estate, that would average out at more than 10 transwomen per female prison. If we avoid placing them in any of the 6 prisons with a mother and baby unit, there will be an average of 20 transwoman in the remainder.

Now what is the purpose of M&B units? I quote.

The aim is to establish and maintain a bond between mother and child, in line with evidence that a key psychological process of attachment takes place between babies and their primary caregiver in the first six to seven months of life, which influences the later development. MBUs are supported by trained prison staff and nursery nurses throughout the stay to teach mothers new skills for when they are released such as cooking and caring for their babies.

Now, how many places are there in mother and baby units?


With an estimated 17,000 women in the criminal justice system thought to be mothers, places on an MBU are highly sought after. There are limited number of spaces with only a 64 mother and 70 baby spaces which means that many applications are rejected.

Horrifyingly, HMP Bronzefield is actually one of those prisons with a mother and baby unit. You'd think this tragedy would have occurred at a prison without a unit. But it gets worse.


The process to apply for a place can be long and complex which means that the mother and child/ren can be separated for a long time before a decision is made. Even in the unlikely event that a mother is granted a place, you can only look after your child until they are 18 months old.

Lucy Frazer QC MP and Minister for Prisons and Probation addresses this issue in the 2020 Review of operational policy on pregnancy, mother and baby units and maternal separation, stating that she wants to speed up decision-making, suggesting that to introduce it before sentencing will mean that mother and child are not separated for too long.

The number of places and facilities are just not enough. Many women are losing their children, some being jailed for petty crimes, which in turn can be devastating, leading to mental health problems, repeat offending and general contempt and mistrust in authority.

“It’s hard to get into this unit,” says Emma. “When I first came to Eastwood Park they made clear on the juvenile wing that my behaviour had to be spotless if I wanted to get a place here. That meant not getting into arguments with anyone, which is hard when you are cooped up with a load of other women in such a small space. You can see that from watching Big Brother. People fall out about anything.”

Continues here: backintosociety.co.uk/2021/04/12/prison-mother-and-baby-units-in-england-and-wales/

So what is going to happen if we lock up, not to put too fine a point on it, a larger number of ejaculating people with the menstruating people than we have places in the mother and baby units?

[PlonitbatPlonit]

Woman's Place UK is having a meeting on the subject of women in prison, which is sure to touch on these themes - plenty of expertise will be in the room.

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/a-womans-place-is-not-in-prison-tickets-172327715837

[EmbarrassingAdmissions]

why do misogynists like to hang out in the feminism board, I wonder?

I wonder if there's a set of people who enjoy being community disruptors and contrarians. However, there may be an interesting distinction between misogynists and those with internalised misogyny.

[FlyingOink]

Mr. Lammy: Prisoners can apply and that person will be subject to prison arrangements for their new acquired gender. We are talking about a very small group of people and the hon. Gentleman knows that that situation would arise in limited circumstances.
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmhansrd/vo040223/debtext/40223-15.htm
They asked the questions back in 2004 and Lammy didn't give a shit then

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

That "very small group of people" is literally twice the size of the number of places we have set aside for incarcerated women with babies under 18 months old.

129 transwomen in the estate versus 64 places for women with babies in the women's estate. Despite all we know about the impact of separation on the mother-baby dyad. Despite that we know that those who spent time in care as children are massively over-represented as adults in the prison system. The graphic I have saved, which I supplied on the previous page, had it at 31% of incarcerated women had been in care as children. And this has been a known issue for years.

So tell me it's very small again, Lammy.

[MrsOvertonsWindow]

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

That "very small group of people" is literally twice the size of the number of places we have set aside for incarcerated women with babies under 18 months old.

129 transwomen in the estate versus 64 places for women with babies in the women's estate. Despite all we know about the impact of separation on the mother-baby dyad. Despite that we know that those who spent time in care as children are massively over-represented as adults in the prison system. The graphic I have saved, which I supplied on the previous page, had it at 31% of incarcerated women had been in care as children. And this has been a known issue for years.

So tell me it's very small again, Lammy.

When you look at all the resources thrown at this group of entitled male born sex offenders, murderers etc - not just financial but thousands of hours of officer time, conferences, meetings, resources, even surgery fgs. It must run into many many hundreds of thousands of pounds yearly - possibly millions.
Yet the MoJ and the Prison Service can't manage the most basic of care for pregnant women and babies. To the extent that babies die - repeatedly.

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

And they will be taking up officer time at exactly the same prisons. You can't even say, well, it's a different prison and different people handling the issues. Take, for instance, the infamous Karen White, convicted rapist, placed in a women's prison, where White assaulted more women.

White was transferred to New Hall prison in Wakefield, West Yorkshire, on remand last September after being arrested on suspicion of repeatedly stabbing a neighbour. The attacks on fellow prisoners took place between September and October.

The 52-year-old, who is currently transitioning, was sentenced yesterday for two counts of rape, two sexual assaults and one offence of wounding.

White has previous convictions for indecent assault, indecent exposure and gross indecency involving children, animal cruelty and dishonesty.

Is New Hall one of the women's prisons with a Mother and Baby Unit? According to the list here, yes it is.

backintosociety.co.uk/2021/04/12/prison-mother-and-baby-units-in-england-and-wales/

[MrsOvertonsWindow]

Indeed Purgatory Extra officer time, resources that should all be devoted to women yet are re diverted to these sex offenders. I'd forgotten about prisoners getting free surgery.
I bet if the actual costs of dealing with this group of dangerous prisoners dumped in women's prisons, the cost would run into millions. Just the protocol for placing one trans prisoner in the women's estate involves discussions, meetings, completely inadequate and biased risk assessments that must run into thousands in terms of paid time.
Just imagine if all that money was rediverted from these sex offenders to vulnerable pregnant women and their babies.
A meeting of professionals around the mother and child to determine placement, identify maternity care needs, regular monitoring and a plan for birth and post birth. Maybe special units for pregnant women deemed vulnerable.
They've got the money and resources there - it's just being spent on the numerous male born sex offenders.

[NiceGerbil]

Not RTFT only OP.

This is by no means the first and not the last.

It comes up in the media every couple of years or so.

What all the cases I've read include an apparent TOTAL lack of any kind of concern, even a mild hmm maybe better check. For the women AT ALL. in all the cases.

The woman goes into labour. Could be a bit premature, could be as in this case unexpected. Call for help. Nothing.

In a previous case the woman's cellmate was telling whoever came that her cellmate needed help urgently.

Nothing nothing nothing.

I don't know how many prisons are now run by private companies. What I DO know is that prisons with private firms running them are a disaster.

The main issues are in the men's due to the nature IE violence. But I'm sure they're shit in women's as well.

They are run understaffed. Underpaid. I suspect they are not trained as well. That sort of stuff.

This story was heartbreaking.

The difference in the profile between men and women in prison. The % of those in for violent/ sex offences etc Vs others types of crimes.

There are and have been for years massive??? over the profiles of incarcerated women.

The prison reform trust is one charity who I think is good on all this.

www.prisonreformtrust.org.uk/

The situation with young men in YOI and all sorts of bullying and the high success rate is something else I find particularly troubling.

In the male estate the sort of casual acceptance of the risk of violence and sexual abuse needs to be done away with. The drugs issue needs to be got on top of.

I mean it's all a nightmare. Thing is there's not much interest in looking after criminals in line with basic decency is there.

[NiceGerbil]

Will read thread hope not repeated anything!

[CharlieParley]

I was going to comment on community disruptors and not playing into their hands, but in this case the goady posting resulted in truly informative and moving comments from PurgatoryOfPotholes and I am truly grateful she has taken the time and effort to write all of this. I did not know we had so few places in mother and baby units, I did not know about the glacial pace of decision making on access (I cannot believe this is even happening in 2021).

Thank you PurgatoryOfPotholes for educating me.

[NiceGerbil]

Read thread.

This thread was started not for the reasons stated?

OP you've not been back- it's your thread. Posters have taken time to respond.. What are your thoughts on what could/ should happen about prisons?

I'm going to assume you're interested I mean I don't know who you are as it were.

You can donate to prison reform trust see link ^^.

If not affordable I don't know but there may be voluntary things you can do to help them.

I mean if someone did decide to use the appalling story of a teenager birthing her baby in a cell with no help and then the baby dying. To make a point about something else. To a bunch of women on MN.

Then I seriously think you should reflect on what you are doing to achieve whatever it is.

I mean maybe you're on the line I don't know others seem to know more.

If you were trying to make a point about a totally different topic then I say again.

That choosing to use a story of a teenager giving birth in a cell, with those who were responsible for her care turning their backs, and as a result her baby dying.

Is genuinely despicable and you really should be ashamed of yourself.

If this was genuine then I apologise. And I find it hard to believe anyone would sit down and do that tbh.

[NiceGerbil]

It's an important topic so I mean why it was started is not relevant in the end.

It's nice to talk about something other than the extremely important topic we have been forced into focusing on.

[OhHolyJesus]

Not that an OP is ever beholden to return to a thread but it is about 24 hours now and not a peep, despite showing such interest and concern about this very important issue for women and wishing to raise awareness of the plight of women, particularly pregnant or labouring women, in prison. Maybe the OP is busy raising awareness on Twitter...

I'm guessing that when asking "where are the feminists" and the reply is "here we are", there isn't much left to say

[FlyingOink]

@MrsOvertonsWindow

Indeed Purgatory Extra officer time, resources that should all be devoted to women yet are re diverted to these sex offenders. I'd forgotten about prisoners getting free surgery.
I bet if the actual costs of dealing with this group of dangerous prisoners dumped in women's prisons, the cost would run into millions. Just the protocol for placing one trans prisoner in the women's estate involves discussions, meetings, completely inadequate and biased risk assessments that must run into thousands in terms of paid time.
Just imagine if all that money was rediverted from these sex offenders to vulnerable pregnant women and their babies.
A meeting of professionals around the mother and child to determine placement, identify maternity care needs, regular monitoring and a plan for birth and post birth. Maybe special units for pregnant women deemed vulnerable.
They've got the money and resources there - it's just being spent on the numerous male born sex offenders.

Initial boards - Individuals on arrival at a prison/AP or the first time an individual discloses their gender identity or transgender status. Initial Local Case Boards must be held within 14 days as per the policy. Note this is WITHIN 14 days and good practice would be to convene the board as soon as you are able to.
www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-care-and-management-of-individuals-who-are-transgender

[catzwhiskas]

Ex judge on BBC Today this morning saying that he didn’t usually ask about pregnancy status before sentencing but would expect defence to bring up any issues. Also said that by not sentencing women who may be pregnant, it would give a message to others that they could commit crimes with impunity. Doesn’t seem to worry about the rapists or paedofiles claiming transgender status left free to roam..

[MrsOvertonsWindow]

Thank you Flying Oink. The amount of time and money that must have cost to establish and now to maintain is

In contrast I couldn't find anything as rigorous but a quick google established that the MoJ are aware of the dangers for women and babies and they have a nice press release suggesting things that maybe ought to happen if they can persuade the prison service to get involved and if they're not too busy.....
Can't see anything mandatory, but I know there are experts in the prison service on here who may be able to show us the equally rigorous procedures for pregnant women and babies??

www.gov.uk/government/news/improvements-to-care-for-pregnant-women-and-mothers-in-prison

[TalkingtoLangClegintheDark]

I bet if the actual costs of dealing with this group of dangerous prisoners dumped in women's prisons, the cost would run into millions. Just the protocol for placing one trans prisoner in the women's estate involves discussions, meetings, completely inadequate and biased risk assessments that must run into thousands in terms of paid time.
Just imagine if all that money was rediverted from these sex offenders to vulnerable pregnant women and their babies.
A meeting of professionals around the mother and child to determine placement, identify maternity care needs, regular monitoring and a plan for birth and post birth. Maybe special units for pregnant women deemed vulnerable.
They've got the money and resources there - it's just being spent on the numerous male born sex offenders.

Absolutely agree, MrsOvertons and Potholes.

Just imagine the same resources, time, energy, interest that are allocated to male people being allocated to female people.