Women's Wellbeing in Prisons

[DisgustedofManchester]

Apologies if this is a repost as I know how many people in these fora are concerned about the health and well being of women in prison. Since it happened in 2019 I am sure there is a long thread about it but David Lammy rightly brought it to light again this week. pre and ante natal care in prisons is pretty disgusting, its almost as though most people do not care.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-58646499

People do care, just not here, here it's mainly middle class feminism against gender here, those in prison aren't (mainly) middle class. Gc can raise tens of thousands for men kicked out of a course but can't raise a penny for prison services. The feminism here is quite different, it's just a single issue group.

Please do share the actions you take to raise awareness of the treatment of women in UK prisons anaily.

If you only frequent this board to tell women how to 'feminist' properly you might not be aware of a) the recent board split, b) that this board is limited to discussion around sex and gender (the clue is in the name) and c) that there is another board where women is prison, their well-being and that of their children is already being discussed, just this morning in fact this thread was started....

Shocking case of young woman who gave birth in prison - BBC radio 4 Today www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism/4356486-shocking-case-of-young-woman-who-gave-birth-in-prison-bbc-radio-4-today

There's also this

DM article - interview with female attacked in prison. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4304592-DM-article-interview-with-female-attacked-in-prison

This from 2018

'Womens' prisons are not nice places' (may be upsetting) www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3399670-Womens-prisons-are-not-nice-places-may-be-upsetting

This from earlier this year

Why are pregnant women in UK prisons? http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/surveysstudentssnonprofitssandstartt_ups/3968996-Why-are-pregnant-women-in-UK-prisons

WPUK meeting coming up on women and prisons:

womansplaceuk.org/events/

And also this

Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/4181653-Women-shouldn-t-have-to-go-to-court-to-beg-not-to-be-locked-up-with-intact-male-rapists

Just a few, top of my head, examples to show a) it is being discussed - maybe you would like to join in and share a view of how women in prison could be better cared for and housed safely? b) Mumsnetters do care, there are many more threads to choose from if you bothered to search for more on this particular topic before you came to criticise and c) the board split that was requested to keep sex and gender separate from other discussions on feminism hasn't worked to the benefit of those who requested if you don't follow the rules and maybe it's isn't the gotcha you thought it was.

Background reading - after 25 years the Maternity Alliance was forced to close in 2005 due to a lack of funding

www.maternityaction.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/prisonsreport.pdf

Maybe those criticising should launch a crowdfunder for it to be reopened? I would certainly donate.

Oh look, here are more women looking at this area and what is needed to support other women.

www.nicco.org.uk/userfiles/downloads/5ac5e7eabfa90-birth-companions-charter.pdf

Oh my, even the government was looking at this in 2014....

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/905559/summary-report-of-review-of-policy-on-mbu.pdf

What? No return?

How very disappointing. You'd think, being so interested, or so annoyed by the apparent lack of care about this issue, that either of the first two posters would have been back... then again, apologising for their errors isn't their style, is it?

Pshaw!

Lammy can bring it to light all he likes, interesting to see a poster in the sex and gender board celebrating a male MP for talking about this when it's largely women are doing the hard graft on the research, data gathering, report writing, awareness raising and reform campaigning and then there's the journalism...

Written by Hannah Devlin and Diane Taylor

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/22/hmp-bronzefield-baby-death-prison-births

It notes failures and deaths, much like the other case Lammy graciously bestowed light on...

Perhaps instead we could talk about this woman, Baroness Corston who was chair of the Parliamentary Labour Party, the first woman ever to hold that position.

She was in office for almost a decade before Lammy took office, she was elected as an MP in 1992 (when Lanny was 20 years old) and who has been focused on this particular issue since her report in 2007.

"Jean Corston endured poverty and tragedy before becoming an MP and now a peer. Now, 10 years after her landmark report, she is still fighting to reform women’s prisons"

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/19/jean-corston-women-prison-reform-if-i-can-make-it-so-can-you

But sure, let's talk about David Lammy.

It is also interesting that the OP pointed out David Lammy when the names in the article are...

Sue McAllister, Prisons and Probation Ombudsman

Vicky Robinson,Director or Bronzefield

Suzanne Rankin, the chief executive of Ashford and St. Peter's Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust

And again the journalists are female:

By Lizzie Massey and June Kelly

And whilst Lammy is leading the Lammy Review, a review of BAME women and how they are treated in the criminal justice system (2017) he isn't actually named in the article and the OP didn't link to what Lammy has said on this particular failure for this 18 year old woman and death of a newborn baby.

I'll save the OP the trouble, having checked his Twitter it's...oh he last tweeted about women in prison in February.

Saying that thoughI do find this very interesting and I agree with him (from 2019)

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/most-bame-women-in-prison-there-because-of-a-man-says-david-lammyukk_5c9a0912e4b07435554a478c

David Lammy rightly brought it to light again this week.

Could the OP perhaps share what he said?

That might have been a good starting point...

Discussed on Woman’s Hour today with the Ombudsman , being rather defensive about what happened and how it was dealt with. Male staff did not pass on messages and emergency call not responded to. If women can’t be looked after when giving birth we cannot rely on them when women are being attacked by men in women’s facilities either. Agree with Arabella that the money for 500 new places for women should be spent in keeping women and especially pregnant women out of prison. To
The two posters on here telling us off know f.all about these issues so should just f.off.

Is the OP Ash Sarkar?

For more on the report that is out which details this Bronzefield failures and death, Ombudsman (even with 'man' in her title, as this is the sex and gender board, I feel I must point out that this is a woman, lest there be any confusion), Sue McAllister is interviewed by another woman, Emma Barnett.

From about 2mins in, first item.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000zsnq

I can't believe that Disgusted and anaily haven't been back to comment on this.

Shocked I tell you...

Great links thank you OhHoly.

Strange that OP and a PP feel that we don't discuss women in prison's needs enough. I am always happy to discuss this as it is a safety issue and one that has affected a family member recently. So.... really interesting approach by both the first two posters.

Thanks fir linking the interview holy

Its a horrific listen.

No one answering

Everything is someone else's department and no one did anything

Zero responsibility taken for what happened.

People do care, just not here, here it's mainly middle class feminism against gender here, those in prison aren't (mainly) middle class.

You have shown that you have no knowledge of the posters who regularly post on this board. Numerous times.

In fact, you have neglected to answer many questions across the numerous threads. Plus you have also shown that you clearly don't read and critically analyse the links that are posted that disprove your assertions.

Why on earth would anyone think that you know anything about this board, or even feminism?

Gc can raise tens of thousands for men kicked out of a course but can't raise a penny for prison services.

And for any readers who have missed anaily's recent efforts, of course they are referring to James Esses case which is superficially about him being kicked out of a course (and that is about as much depth as anaily applies in this linked thread). It is more concerningly about an institution that should be applying an evidence based approach to the treatments for children and teenagers.

In fact, in line with other institutions around the world such as Sweden, Australia and New Zealand.

But crack on anaily because we can continue to link up our evidence all day, every day. It doesn't get boring, because it keeps refreshing our memories on just how much evidence is archived and available for our discussions. So Thanks! It makes each thread that much more informative. As OhHolyJesus has proven this time.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4347130-James-Esses-Case-Evidence-based-therapy

The feminism here is quite different, it's just a single issue group.

Well.... yes. We discuss the upholding and strengthening of the rights for those who have experienced sexist discrimination due to their female body, that which is formed around the production of large gametes even if that production does not happen for whatever reason.

Not just the upholding and strengthening, but also the need for any new rights provisions in light of any current events.

So, yes. We are a 'single issue group'. Feminism is for centring female needs. And women are NOT the carers for the entire world and the world's needs in general.

On this I agree with you.

@OhHolyJesus

This from earlier this year

Why are pregnant women in UK prisons? [[http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/surveys]]studentssnonprofitssandstartt_ups/3968996-Why-are-pregnant-women-in-UK-prisons

Why indeed.

I saw this heartbreaking story on Twitter earlier and signed and shared this petition, others might want to do the same:

twitter.com/hansummers/status/1440662999270760458

Another question: why do misogynists like to hang out in the feminism board, I wonder? 🤔

And let’s just pause to think about which cohort of people are affected by this barbaric system? Which ones is it again? Is there a way of defining them, of knowing exactly who might be at risk of something like this, who we need to be advocating for?

Oh yes. It’s women. Biologically female people. The very people that someone like the OP wishes to strip of the word that describes us, a group that has these particular experiences. To make it harder to fight for better protections and treatment for us. To fight for redress against the millennia long oppression and bias against us on the basis of our sex.

OP who is pretending to care about these women while doing OP’s best to undermine safeguarding for them, and using this tragedy as a cheap shot to try and score points against “disobedient” GC feminists.

Low. Really low.

@anaily

People do care, just not here, here it's mainly middle class feminism against gender here, those in prison aren't (mainly) middle class. Gc can raise tens of thousands for men kicked out of a course but can't raise a penny for prison services. The feminism here is quite different, it's just a single issue group.

Then you'll already know about this campaign and have been doing your part to support it.

www.rcm.org.uk/media-releases/2019/november/all-women-in-prison-must-have-access-to-equivalent-maternity-care-as-women-outside-the-prison-system-says-rcm-publishing-new-position-statement-on-perinatal-women-in-the-criminal-justice-system/

Honestly, how many times do I have to say this? I have had female loved ones in prison. I used to live in a women's only homeless hostel.

I think about this case and others like it whenever people like you push for mixed-sex prisons. Clearly you don't, otherwise you would avoid this topic, as I normally allow you and your ilk to do so. I never bring up the diabolical care for pregnant women in prison because I can't bear the thought of one of those mothers seeing the crass behaviour of trans activists directed towards their bereavement.

But given that you have somehow managed to discover the issue without having it spoonfed to you, and you're already started on the crassness, let's have this dance.

Exactly what do you think happens when we have mixed-sex prisons? Sexual contact between inmates, as in penis in vagina sex. Consensual and non-consensual. I'll assume you do know where babies come from?

UK prisons can't provide adequate maternity care to the small number of women who enter pregnant. Will they deal better with it when they have a larger number of pregnant prisoners? What if the incarcerated woman is on a sentence lasting longer than nine months? She'll give birth in prison. So we'll have babies conceived and born in prison. What then? What will be in their best interests?

Will she be moved to a mother and baby unit in another prison, disrupting any emotional connections she has with other inmates at a time when she needs more support than ever? What if it was a consensual relationship with the person siring the baby and she wants to stay in the same prison as them? What if the father wants her to stay? Very interested in the answer to that one?

What if there are no places free? Will the baby be removed and out into foster care? It will be the Magdalen Laundries all over again. What will be in the baby's best interest? Staying with his/her mother in prison or being removed from his/her mother, to be restored to her upon release?

What if there are no places free in the mother and baby unit, but she only has a month left of sentence? What does least damage to the baby? Staying with her in normal prison, or being removed, placed with a foster carer and then returned to her when she's released?

What if it's two months? What if it's three? Where is the line gonna be?

And what about the woman's mental health in all this?

What is the impact on her of an unplanned pregnancy? And if the person who sired the baby is a transwoman, is there going to be a legal fight over rhe birth certificate? In fact, if she wants the sire on the birth certificate, and she's been moved to a prison the other end of the country, will the prison service manage to coordinate getting them together in front of a registrar?

Many prisoners especially women are intensely vulnerable. Perhaps we could, as a state, take proper responsibility for their welfare, and keep them separated by sex so they can't acquire new, lifechanging responsibilities at a very bad time to do so? No?

Great post, Potholes.