Andrew Marr, Lib Dem leader what is wrong with the phrase woman: adult human female

[FemaleAndLearning]

Sunday 19th Sept 925am.
He won't answer the question. Andrew Marr keeps pushing.

[quote Cam77]@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken
Everything is reverent to everyone. But I think the state of the economy, housing, jobs, and the NHS are more important to more women in the UK than what we call some random person who has a penis but claims to feel like a female.[/quote]
I don't think anyone here cares at all what a man claims he feels like.
He can feel like a duck billed platypus for us. We do however care when he wishes to come into our shelters, prisons, hospital wards and toilets among other places, with his penis or not.

I think Marr missed an opportunity. It's self ID that is the issue, not transgender people per se.

@NecessaryScene

So the question is why are they trying to sell it and for what purpose?

I think it's partly because they're just genuinely scared to say "no" to a bunch of unhinged people.

But also they're aware that if they can get the unhinged people on-side then those unhinged people will be unhinged at potential opponents within the organisation on their behalf.

It's inserting yourself near the top of a sort of totalitarian control system. They don't get to be in control of the trans policies, but they win a sort of group loyalty versus outsiders as long as they say the right things on this irrelevant-to-them stuff. So they reckon they gain overall.

Other examples of this sort of dynamic - Nicola Sturgeon in the SNP, or George Bridges at Evergreen State College.

Christ that is incredibly depressing. I hadn’t thought of it like that: My attack dogs will keep interlopers at bay. Yes, yes, to totalitarian control.

There is Lyndon Johnson's stated reason for not sacking J Edgar Hoover:

"Better to have him indside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in..."

@MishyJDI

Most trans women I talk to identify readily as adult human females, and transmen as adult human males. So I don't really see the issue, other than it being a dog whistle for attempted crass segregation.

You can't identify as an adult human female you either are one or you are not and to be one you have to have been born female.

Identifying as a sex you are not and never can be is ridiculous, risible, dangerous nonsense, high time fact and reality reclaimed its rightful position.

@Jaysmith71

There is Lyndon Johnson's stated reason for not sacking J Edgar Hoover:

"Better to have him indside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in..."

But J Edgar Hoover just wanted to pee. Be kind!

MM gets today's prize.

@MishyJDI

Most trans women I talk to identify readily as adult human females, and transmen as adult human males. So I don't really see the issue, other than it being a dog whistle for attempted crass segregation.

The issue being discussed is about physical, biological reality and descriptions that refer to that, not some abstract concept of "identity" that nobody can explain.

I could "identify" myself as a potato but I wouldn't expect people to pretend I was a potato out of politeness when it is clear I am not a potato. Or to cut me up into chips and fry me, no matter how much I protested that this was in line with my potato "identity". In fact the law would take a pretty dim view of it whether or not I consented to being treated as a potato.

Physical reality matters, that's the entire point of the conversation and Marr's feature. Your comment is obtuse, to say the least.

He was saying that before Boris members of all parties who agree with him have been working together. Their cosy consensus has only been broken by Boris playing politics.
Is this referencing thatcross party LBQT+ group funded by trans organisations that had tried to stitch up parliament? Was it Crispin Blunt who complained that government didn't do what they were told and it was unfair?

@Jaysmith71

There is Lyndon Johnson's stated reason for not sacking J Edgar Hoover:

"Better to have him indside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in..."

Where do women piss then?

Oh wait...

[quote Cam77]@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken
What about the women in rape crisis centres being bullied into sharing spaces with males?
I think the fact that women are being raped is a far greater issue to deal with and try to put a stop to than the probably less than 1% of those victims who might then be affected by transdefinition.

What about women in prison forced to share spaces with males?
I think the fact that prisons are overflowing with men (many having committed violent acts against innocent men and women) is a far greater societal problem than the less than 1% of women who might be affected by transdefintion.[/quote]
Well your honest, I like that,

So please do tell, how many actual women have to be harmed before this makes it a priority to you.
Actual numbers if you dont mind.

But Transpuds are spuds.

I read it in Pink Fir Apple News.

@Melroses

It is amazing watching the results of #no debate in action.

There he is with all his mantras and training, using Boris as his diversionary squirrel and not mentioning the word woman.

The world just moves on round him.

But he seems to think 'no debate' is Boris's fault.

This is what he said:

ED Yes, I mean, we’ve made it very clear and what we’re concerned about is that there does need to be a debate in wider society. And that debate is not being had because of Boris Johnson’s failure to lead.

Do the Lib Dems want a debate now? Or do you think he is now being re-educated by Helen Belcher and Layla Moran about the importance of sticking to #nodebate?

And if he really wants a debate, why the refusal to answer Andrew Marr's simple question about woman: adult human female?

So please do tell, how many actual women have to be harmed before this makes it a priority to you.
Actual numbers if you dont mind.

Yes and can you also tell us how you reached the conclusion that less than 1% of women in rape centres and prisons would be affected?

Can you also tell us why you think this has to be an either/ or issue? Can we not continue to work on the root causes of rape whilst also appropriately supporting people who have been raped?

Can you tell us why, if you're happy to sacrifice a 'small' number of people for what you believe to be a greater societal good, this applies only to women and not to trans people?

@astrowars

Just emailed [email protected] to tell Ed Davey why many women will not be voting for his party whilst this is the point of view.

I did too.

I doubt he'll even be told about it. The heavily compromised volunteer interns won't rock that boat.

However, the autoreply does give a link to his Twitter ... might be worth a look-see.

@astrowars

Just emailed [email protected] to tell Ed Davey why many women will not be voting for his party whilst this is the point of view.

Good idea - I just did the same. I never thought I would see the day when I would vote Tory but currently I see no other alternative. Their policies in many areas are horrific but parties which work to entrench sex-based inequalities can never create a more positive society for all.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Labour & the Lib Dem’s are being so monumentally stupid over this it beggars belief. It’s quite obvious it’s now going to be brought up a lot and even more so come election times. Is it really so hard to formulate a policy that says “women are women, Tw are TW, both have rights, these may at times conflict and we must be sure to protect both but not at the expense of women ” or some such?

I honestly don't know why. It would be so much easier to get behind. I would fully support a party that said this, why do they have to disregard women like this? Do they think it doesn't matter?

A Lib Dem spokesperson here stepping slightly outside the approved box. I think she's missing the point and is under informed about prisons but she's also far too conciliatory for the TRAs. I wonder if she will be pulled in for re-education?

mobile.twitter.com/helenhalcrow/status/1439607659351642116

Well I identify as a woman, and I’m happy for trans women to identify as women as well. I don’t see an erosion of my rights.

That said, we need to have a constructive conversation with women who are concerned about safety, eg in prisons. It’s no good just hurling insults

At people who support trans rights as ‘anti-women’ and women worried about safety as TERF or whatever. We need to have a calm debate about the facts, which I think is sometimes missing, and leads to wrongly entrenched views.

For example, for me it’s a no-brainer that someone with a history of violence against women should be separated from women in a prison. But the reality is most trans women pose no threat, and would be at risk in a male prison.

This is getting properly in the mainstream now. It's glorious to see.

Their policies in many areas are horrific but..
I asked myself if it would be easier to influence the Tories by promising them my vote "if" or easier to influence the other parties by promising my vote "if".
The Lib Dems have outright stated they don't want my vote.
The Labour Party has stated TWAW.
The Greens call me a non-man.

So I don't have any influence on them as a voter. If I offered my vote "if", they have made it clear they would tell me to fuck off. Ideological purity is more important to them than winning elections and actually changing people's lives for the better. This is why I stopped being a Labour Party member.

@Mummyoflittledragon

AM: Let’s try something else. Let’s talk about free speech. What is wrong with this phrase - woman: adult human female

ED: Well, the Liberal Democrats believe trans rights are er, really important because trans people are some of the most discriminated against in our society today, huge health problems, high suicide rate and I think everybody ought to worry about that. The real issue I think is the toxfication of the debate.

AM (interrupting) : What’s wrong with the phrase woman - adult human female

ED: I’ve made it clear on our position on trans right, no one can criticise me for that. What I’m concerned about is on this issue, we had been working cross party in the past, I’ve worked with Conservative MPs, who agree with me, Labour MPs, who agree with me. What’s changed is Boris Johnson coming to no 10. Boris Johnson has toxified this debate, he’s set up a culture war unit in no 10.

AM (interrupting) I do want to come back to this phrase. What is wrong with the phrase, can you explain what is wrong with the phrase - woman: adult human female.

ED Well, you, in fact the phrase doesn’t encapsulate the debate tbh. That’s what’s the problem with it. That the issue that we have been really clear is that a transwoman is a woman, a transman is a man and that is the issue that we are fairly fighting on. We believe that trans rights are human rights. But I do take you back to Boris Johnson. Because there was a time that, but, let’s face it, let’s be honest, these are difficult issues for many people.

AM I, I, try to keep off Boris Johnson and onto Ed Davy and the Liberal Democrats because the reason I keep using that phrase and I’m sure you is that one of your members Natalie Bird has been banned from standing as a Liberal Democrat in any circumstances for 10 years because she wore a t-shirt which had that slogan on it.

ED Well, we have a complaints issues and I’m not part of the totally independent and I can’t comment on an individual case. What I can say.

AM That is true what I’ve just told you. That is true and y’know the Liberal Democrat’s used to a tolerant, open party, keen for debate and above all keen for free speech. Now you disagree with Natalie Bird, she disagrees with you, but with that single phrase she has been cast out of your party. That’s not very liberal, is it?

ED Well, we absolutely believe in free speech but we also believe that we need to protect human rights and we believe in equality. And the reason I do keep coming back to Boris Johnson, and I make no apologies for that, is because the Liberal Democrats have been working with other parties. People in the Conservative party, the Labour Party, who share our view. And when Boris Johnson came, that cross party working ended and I think that’s really a shame. Because he’s trying to divide people. We should be bringing people together.

AM I’m particularly interested in your view in this interview for obvious reasons. Do you think that everywhere in society and I’m thinking of toilets, prisons, refuges, hospital wards should be open to everybody regardless of sex?

ED If you’re a transman, you should be able to operate as a man.

AM So the answer is yes, to my question.

ED Yes, I mean, we’ve made it very clear and what we’re concerned about is that there does need to be a debate in wider society. And that debate is not being had because of Boris Johnson’s failure to lead.

AM So to be absolutely clear. If you don’t agree that all spaces should be open to everyone regardless of sex, don’t vote Liberal Democrat.

ED Well, no. Because there are many reasons why people vote for different parties. We’re talking at our conference today about the need to deal with the Covid, er crisis, particularly for young children and young people. We want to give parents power so we can catch up on the lost learning, we want to look after carers, we want to tackle the climate crisis, we want to look after small businesses. So I’m sorry Andrew, when people vote, there’s a whole set of issues they vote on.

AM So disagree with us on that but agree with us on other issues. Right for now Sir Ed Davy, thanks very much for agreeing to coming in and taking to us.

ED thank you.

🔔🔚

For example, for me it’s a no-brainer that someone with a history of violence against women should be separated from women in a prison.

If its a no-brainer why would anyone make it illegal to separate him from women? Does this person understand the implications of proposed legal changes, and the current overreach of Stonewall legal misrepresentation?

Don't worry Redtoothbrush , he is reading the paper now I have bought it and we had interesting discussion at lunch over whether the BBC or the Guardian (both free to read so what he reads mostly) are truly impartial. We have been talking about trans issues since one of his primary friends started identifying as a boy in year 7.

@FlyingOink

For example, for me it’s a no-brainer that someone with a history of violence against women should be separated from women in a prison.

If its a no-brainer why would anyone make it illegal to separate him from women? Does this person understand the implications of proposed legal changes, and the current overreach of Stonewall legal misrepresentation?

Quite. It's notable that she is still saying here that men with a history of violence against women should be put in women's prisons. Just that maybe some attempts to separate them should be made once they are there.

Which is an insane way to go about things.