Andrew Marr, Lib Dem leader what is wrong with the phrase woman: adult human female

[FemaleAndLearning]

Sunday 19th Sept 925am.
He won't answer the question. Andrew Marr keeps pushing.

Similar from Layla Moran on LBC. I’ve just started a thread.

I’m in a Tory seat that the Lib Dem’s could win. I’ve always voted Lib Dem living here.

I don’t think I can vote for them when I think of my young niece ☹️.

@OvaHere

A Lib Dem spokesperson here stepping slightly outside the approved box. I think she's missing the point and is under informed about prisons but she's also far too conciliatory for the TRAs. I wonder if she will be pulled in for re-education?

mobile.twitter.com/helenhalcrow/status/1439607659351642116

Well I identify as a woman, and I’m happy for trans women to identify as women as well. I don’t see an erosion of my rights.

That said, we need to have a constructive conversation with women who are concerned about safety, eg in prisons. It’s no good just hurling insults

At people who support trans rights as ‘anti-women’ and women worried about safety as TERF or whatever. We need to have a calm debate about the facts, which I think is sometimes missing, and leads to wrongly entrenched views.

For example, for me it’s a no-brainer that someone with a history of violence against women should be separated from women in a prison. But the reality is most trans women pose no threat, and would be at risk in a male prison.

The things is... that all seems quite sensible but once you accept that there are some circumstances when it is un acceptable to have a trans woman being in a woman's space then the whole 'trans women are women' falls apart.

The only logical conclusion is that it has to be all or nothing. If you really do believe that trans women are women you can't really have any exemptions.

Thank you for the transcript. Ye gods, this man, who's my MP, is desperately seeking cover from other parties and resorting to playing party politics to create a villain in the Lib Dems' arch enemy, the hated Conservatives. Of course they all do that but to me it is remarkable in a way that Conservative Boris Johnson has gone against the powerful Stonewall-aligned senior Conservatives both in the Commons, Lords and at Central Office (and Civil Service for good measure) and let Liz Truss get on with it. It could have gone the other way and I thought it would. Again, though, party politics could have played into it as a way to differentiate between Conservative and Labour...plus Lib Dems.

Davey's opposition in his own constituency is Conservative, not Labour and the same in some other SW London constituencies where LibDems have had a surge lately. They also obliterated the Conservative council in my borough at the last local elections.

For Davey and his party, there's everything to gain by plugging away at Johnson, and getting cross-party support in the Commons and Lords. He knows there is something wrong with men self declaring and claiming rights to women's and girls' spaces, and though he stubbornly won't admit it, he now talks about a debate and shows that he feels the need for allies.

[quote Cam77]@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken
What about the women in rape crisis centres being bullied into sharing spaces with males?
I think the fact that women are being raped is a far greater issue to deal with and try to put a stop to than the probably less than 1% of those victims who might then be affected by transdefinition.

What about women in prison forced to share spaces with males?
I think the fact that prisons are overflowing with men (many having committed violent acts against innocent men and women) is a far greater societal problem than the less than 1% of women who might be affected by transdefintion.[/quote]
What about the women in rape crisis centres being bullied into sharing spaces with males?
I think the fact that women are being raped is a far greater issue to deal with and try to put a stop to than the probably less than 1% of those victims who might then be affected by transdefinition.

This is an illogical position. The victims of a crime are not less important than the fact that the crime is being committed. The reason why the crime being committed is a problem in the first place is precisely because the crime has victims.

And with a crime that is neither being effectively policed nor punished nor prevented, your statement is one firmly rooted in theory.

We are concerned with actual women who have been victims of actual male violence.

And it isn't 1% of female survivors of male violence who are effected by the inclusion of males in female-only provisions. 99% of the women and children who seek help from VAWAG sector organisations have a fear of males, regardless of how these males identify.

The inclusion of just one male in the female-only therapeutic environment effects every woman and child in that environment.

Even just a statement of including males in female-only provisions is harmful to female survivors of male violence. It compells them to self-exclude from their own spaces by informing them that space is now mixed-sex which is not something they can access.

What about women in prison forced to share spaces with males?
I think the fact that prisons are overflowing with men (many having committed violent acts against innocent men and women) is a far greater societal problem than the less than 1% of women who might be affected by transdefintion.

Male violence is probably the greatest human rights issue on this planet. The progressive and humane response to this violation is never to ignore its victims. I don't recognise your way of thinking as rooted in compassion, knowledge or even logic.

I'm not sure what it is rooted in, maybe you can tell me, Cam77?

[quote Cam77]@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken
What about the women in rape crisis centres being bullied into sharing spaces with males?
I think the fact that women are being raped is a far greater issue to deal with and try to put a stop to than the probably less than 1% of those victims who might then be affected by transdefinition.

What about women in prison forced to share spaces with males?
I think the fact that prisons are overflowing with men (many having committed violent acts against innocent men and women) is a far greater societal problem than the less than 1% of women who might be affected by transdefintion.[/quote]
But by the very same token you could say that these are also far greater issues than making sweeping changes for the probably less than 1% of people who might be affected by not being allowed to be bepenised in a space meant for females.

@Mollyollydolly

This is getting properly in the mainstream now. It's glorious to see.

Int'it, though?

Hmm deleted for echoing Cam77's words and logic back to them. Would have been far more beneficial to all for Cam77 to respond and refute what I was saying one would have thought.

I think the fact that prisons are overflowing with men (many having committed violent acts against innocent men and women) is a far greater societal problem than the less than 1% of women who might be affected by transdefintion

The problems of men matter much more than the problems of women, which probably are just them being silly anyway?

No.

Male supremacism. It's a pov, certainly, but not one I'll ever be going along with as anything right or good.

Blaming BJ for all this is curious. Is it because Teresa May appeared to support all things trans but Boris has stopped being (fully) compliant, so now it looks like the Tories could be a viable alternative for GC voters.

Was there a backroom cross party pact on this issue? It would make sense.

I’d rather we spend the next decade focusing on stopping violent men commiting domestic violence against women,

And how do we do this if we cannot define men and we cannot define women?

This is now featuring in the Mail on line. Apologies I cannot share. Will be interesting to read the comments.

@TheWeeDonkey

I’d rather we spend the next decade focusing on stopping violent men commiting domestic violence against women,

And how do we do this if we cannot define men and we cannot define women?

We won't need to if the number of men identifying as women and therefore counted as women continues to increase. Even if the identifying as women happens in prison, it would just look like there are just as many "female" rapists and "female" domestic abusers as there are "male". Hence no problem to try to solve. Just "people" being violent to "people". The problem solves itself. /s

“”I’m not saying the trans debate is irrelevant. But I think there are other issues which affect people - particularly women, much more strongly and deeply. “”

Do excuse me as I am fairly new to this. However I was reading today that if we erase ‘sex’ in the equality act or don’t recognise sex anymore then women (and men) will lose those protections we need because of our sex. So in the States, maternity, protected because of sex, will no longer be recognised, Sexual discrimination in England will no longer be protected. So for me this debate is very important.

@Feelingoktoday

“”I’m not saying the trans debate is irrelevant. But I think there are other issues which affect people - particularly women, much more strongly and deeply. “”

Do excuse me as I am fairly new to this. However I was reading today that if we erase ‘sex’ in the equality act or don’t recognise sex anymore then women (and men) will lose those protections we need because of our sex. So in the States, maternity, protected because of sex, will no longer be recognised, Sexual discrimination in England will no longer be protected. So for me this debate is very important.

Yes, you've got it in one. Lots of posters on these boards have seen this coming for years.

There is a concerted effort (by Stonewall etc) to rewrite 'sex' in law and replace it with 'gender', which is undefinable.

Many, many places are already doing this as official policy even though it's not backed up in law (prisons, refuges, Centre Parks swimming changing rooms, all-women shortlists etc).

It's not all about who pees in which toilet, but that's what they want everything to think.

Fair point FlyingOink it all seems so much more straight forward that way 😭

@SpindleWhorl

I think the 'cross-party consensus' to which Ed Davey is alluding is the back-room stitch-up involving Tories like Maria Miller, Crispin Blunt and Penny Mordaunt, and to some extent Theresa May, Amber Rudd and Nicky Morgan, before people in the Party with better political instincts got wind of it and understood the implications.

Liz Truss then scuppered that back-room stitch-up at Boris Johnson's behest, took the flack, and has been duly rewarded with one of the great offices of state.

The careers of Miller, Mordaunt, etc are not doing so well. Blunt is a non-entity with just his APPG for company - and APPGs are under scrutiny now for obvious conflicts of interest.

Thanks for the transcript @Mummyoflittledragon.

I posted this ^^ this morning but I think it got lost in the general melee!

And also the hideous sexism of moving away from “men and women are not fundamentally different mentally, the only difference is our bodies and the different challenges we face in life because of them” to “men and women are just fundamentally different mentally, any difference in our bodies and the different challenges we face in life because of them are irrelevant”.

^ my post above a follow on to Feelingoktoday’s post

Ed Davey doesn't believe that TWAW for a single fucking second. It's written all over his face, I was cringing for him in that interview.

@Passmeamenuatthetottenham

Ed Davey doesn't believe that TWAW for a single fucking second. It's written all over his face, I was cringing for him in that interview.

I thought he was trying avoid saying women must have no rights to single sex spaces. He has now admitted that this is his view twice but surely even he isn't so divorced from reality from believing that it's a vote winner?

@Passmeamenuatthetottenham

Ed Davey doesn't believe that TWAW for a single fucking second. It's written all over his face, I was cringing for him in that interview.

No he doesn't, but he also cares very little about women's rights so is happy to spout nonsense to keep his own position.

This is getting a lot of attention now.

A group of teenage female swimmers in an open plan changing room, no cubicles, getting ready to train. Should a male adult be allowed to strip naked in front of them?

An elderly woman being fitted for a new bra in M&S. She expects a female bra fitter and would not otherwise be there. Should a male bra fitter be allowed in that changing room with her?

Superb post. But it's not just about 'being allowed', it's about 'being entitled'.

This is why people like our Ed get in such a mess; they imagine a group of women kindly allowing TW into spaces, and everybody happily together. In fact - as we see in prisons, in changing rooms - this is about treating TW as fundamentally belonging with women - regardless of any objections, regardless of their behaviour, regardless of the effect on women. Kindness is entirely irrelevant. So we need to be careful about any language that implies women still have any choice.

Quite. It's notable that she is still saying here that men with a history of violence against women should be put in women's prisons. Just that maybe some attempts to separate them should be made once they are there.

How? Does she have any idea of the different size and make up of male and female prison populations? Women’s prisons aren’t designed to house the category and number of male prisoners who would have the right to be rehoused on the basis of self ID.