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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How to approach the 'TW in a work loo' issue

317 replies

LockdownLisa · 14/09/2021 21:57

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4279797-Workplace-advice-needed?msgid=108499436#108499436

This was my thread from a few weeks ago. My colleague has now come out as trans, which is fine. However, I saw her use the women's toilets today, which is not so fine. We do have self contained disabled toilets which I think would be more appropriate.

All we've had from management is a 'Peter is now Sandra, work systems will be updated to reflect this' type email. There's been very little chat in the office about it so I can't gauge how other people feel about it.

I don't really feel comfortable approaching my section manager as I know I'll just be fobbed off. I was thinking about emailing my HR department (I work for an NHS hospital trust, it's a Stonewall member as I think most of them are) but have no idea how to word it!

Does anybody have any suggestions? I was thinking something very simple like:
'Please can you clarify our policy on which toilets, changing rooms and showers our transgender staff are expected to use?'

I'm the lowest of the low in terms of my banding and although I've held more senior positions than this before, I'm so uncertain how to handle this. I believe (from the previous thread) that women are legally entitled to same sex provision, but fighting for that right in the workplace isn't an easy thing to do, especially from my lowly position 😕.

OP posts:
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6
DdraigGoch · 15/09/2021 22:42

@Passmeamenuatthetottenham

Have they scanned large random groups and found how many people are transgender in their brains?

Apparently 'studies have been done' which show that trans people have brains more similar with the 'gender they identify with'. However, funnily enough these studies always come with the disclaimer that this doesn't apply to all trans people and that even if a trans woman's brain just looks like any other male brain then that doesn't mean they are not trans.

So it's all very robust and scientific Grin

Well of course their brains are similar to their gender identity. After all, there isn't any difference of note between a man's and a woman's brain function so they will be similar to any other human.
NiceGerbil · 15/09/2021 22:46

I'm still haven't a clue why there's a sudden need to stop things which are based on sex segregation for good reason, to be changed to internal gender identity.

NiceGerbil · 15/09/2021 22:50

And those who believe that biology is irrelevant and single sex things should be based on a statement about a feeling should take precedence.

And in that case why the argument isn't to abolish everyone single sex instead. As if the reason for sex segregation is gone. There's no reason to separate on an internal gender obviously.

The pressure to keep the sex segregation but change it to internal gender is nonsensical.

CandyLeBonBon · 15/09/2021 23:22

Well of course their brains are similar to their gender identity. After all, there isn't any difference of note between a man's and a woman's brain function so they will be similar to any other human

Sorry, I don't think I got my point across very well.

From the research I've looked at, it's my understanding that in spite of best efforts, there is no evidence to suggest conclusively that a man who identifies himself as a female has a similar brain pattern to a woman (ie the gendered brain) and vice versa because there are too many variables related to upbringing and environment, meaning it's impossible to extrapolate. Therefore the argument that 'men who identify as women have female brains' is impossible to prove.

NiceGerbil · 15/09/2021 23:40

The idea that there are difference in male and female brains has been focus of massive amounts of speculation and study.

Going back way into the past the idea that humans have fundamental differences has been popular. And usually used to support things that are either shit for us, or to explain why things are shit for us.

Currently the push is to find something that proves that there is a 'brain sex' (so what's new) to justify the removal of protections in place due to our bodies.

It's never been explained why what your brain is like has anything to do with sexed bodies when it comes to any of this.

If there are male and female brains then. I mean looking for them or assuming a difference as has gone on for millennia. In the absence of the current and historical global oppression of women would be a different kettle of fish. I mean it's really interesting.

When people say some males have a female brain, so they're in the wrong body.

Why is the possibility that that's normal for some men considered?

And the big question. What things would be the differences? In what way different? What is a 'female brain'?

SpittinKitten · 15/09/2021 23:46

Hasn't modern science found that the male brain contains slugs and snails and puppy dogs tails, while the female brain is mainly sugar and spice and all things nice?

CandyLeBonBon · 15/09/2021 23:53

@NiceGerbil

The idea that there are difference in male and female brains has been focus of massive amounts of speculation and study.

Going back way into the past the idea that humans have fundamental differences has been popular. And usually used to support things that are either shit for us, or to explain why things are shit for us.

Currently the push is to find something that proves that there is a 'brain sex' (so what's new) to justify the removal of protections in place due to our bodies.

It's never been explained why what your brain is like has anything to do with sexed bodies when it comes to any of this.

If there are male and female brains then. I mean looking for them or assuming a difference as has gone on for millennia. In the absence of the current and historical global oppression of women would be a different kettle of fish. I mean it's really interesting.

When people say some males have a female brain, so they're in the wrong body.

Why is the possibility that that's normal for some men considered?

And the big question. What things would be the differences? In what way different? What is a 'female brain'?

@NiceGerbil I think the current understanding is trying to go against any idea of 'gendered brains' because the brain is plastic and therefore cannot be relied upon to supply corroborative evidence that a gendered brain exists.

Lots of studies try to either prove, or disprove the notion that a gendered brain exists but actually, all that seems to happen is that scientists recognise there is no conclusive evidence that brain are anything other that neutral.

CharlieParley · 15/09/2021 23:55

However, I'm still no further forward. Some laws appear to conflict each other, so it would be difficult to complain about this based on that - I could quote the Equality Act 2010 and the HR department could say 'Ah, but...' and how can I respond when it's all so woolly?

Don't let the be-kind-brigade confuse you, LockdownLisa. The law is clear on toilets in the workplace. (Services are a different matter)

The relevant law here is the already mentioned The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992, paragraph 20 which states:

Sanitary conveniences

20.—(1) Suitable and sufficient sanitary conveniences shall be provided at readily accessible places.

(2) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1), sanitary conveniences shall not be suitable unless—

(a)the rooms containing them are adequately ventilated and lit;

(b)they and the rooms containing them are kept in a clean and orderly condition; and

(c)separate rooms containing conveniences are provided for men and women except where and so far as each convenience is in a separate room the door of which is capable of being secured from inside.

(3) It shall be sufficient compliance with the requirement in paragraph (1) to provide sufficient sanitary conveniences in a workplace which is not a new workplace, a modification, an extension or a conversion and which, immediately before this regulation came into force in respect of it, was subject to the provisions of the Factories Act 1961, if sanitary conveniences are provided in accordance with the provisions of Part II of Schedule 1.

Part II of Schedule 1 explicitly mentions female-only and male-only toilets making it clear that men and women are defined here in line with the usual legal meaning of males and females.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3004/regulation/20/made

Please note that unless your employer provides separate rooms for each toilet (this must be a room fully enclosed by building walls, not cubicle walls, but sinks may be shared), they are not complying with the law if they allow your male colleague to use the female-only toilets.

The Equalty and Human Rights Commission are the regulator enforcing the Equality Act 2010. Their guidance is statutory (legally binding), and this is what it says on the issue:

17.55
If a worker is undergoing gender reassignment, it is good practice for the employer to consult with them sensitively about their needs in the workplace and whether there are any reasonable and practical steps the employer can take to help the worker as they undergo their gender reassignment process. For further information on gender reassignment, please refer to paragraphs 2.21 to 2.30 and 9.31 to 9.33.

Example:
A worker will soon be undergoing gender reassignment treatment and the employer has accepted that they want to continue working throughout the transition process. To avoid unresolved questions about which toilet facilities the worker should use, their uniform and communications with other members of staff, the employer should arrange to discuss the situation sympathetically with the worker. The discussion could cover setting a date for using different facilities and uniform; the timescale of the treatment; any impact this may have on the worker’s job and adjustments that could be made; and how the worker would like to address the issue of their transition with colleagues.

From Employment Statutory Code of Practice, page 254

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/equality-act-codes-practice#h3

You'll note that the code does not say that the worker must be allowed to use opposite-sex facilities, but merely "different facilities". This is because an employer must make reasonable adjustments for the worker, which can be a gender-neutral toilet or a disabled toilet (the code specifically refers to such a person also having the protected characteristic of disability if they are medically transitioning). But because The Workplace Regulations apply, they cannot simply insist that this worker should use opposite-sex facilities, because that would break the law.

Now we had a PP earlier quoting from guidance produced by the Government Equalities Office called The recruitment and retention of transgender staff. Guidance for employers. This was published in November 2015. What's important here is that this is not statutory guidance and it cannot supersede the Equality Act 2010, the EHRC Code of Practice or the Workplace Regulations. (The GEO have confirmed elsewhere that where a single-sex provision is a proportionate means to a legitimate aim, it is lawful to exclude people who have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.)

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/484855/The_recruitment_and_retention_of_transgender_staff-_guidance_for_employers.pdf

Now for the Equality Act 2010. This gives you the protected characteristic of sex and contains various provisions intended to protect you from unlawful discrimination in public life. Which includes your employer. The Equality Act 2010 explicitly allows single-sex provisions where a member of one sex may reasonably object to the presence of a member of the opposite sex. It also lists the protected characteristics of disability, religion or belief and race or ethnicity. Which means that some female employees can have additional protected characteristics and an employer must ensure that they do not unlawfully discriminate against all of these protected groups, whether directly or indirectly, and not just cater to your colleague.

So what can you do?

I would follow the advice provided by others here and ask your employer to please signpost you to the female-only toilets that they are obliged to provide for the privacy of female staff. I wouldn't justify it or ask about their policy in regard to staff who identify as trans, because that's not relevant to you and they'd probably just send you waffle anyway. All you want to know in your first step is where the single-sex toilet is for female staff (not just for you, but all female staff).

In your second step, you can list the groups of women who will be excluded from the previously female-only toilet by making it single-sex and argue the law. But for starters I wouldn't go in guns blazing - you know they must provide either female-only multi-entry or unisex single-entry toilets by law, so just send a matter-of-fact enquiry as to where those are. If they say there aren't any, send an email asking them to confirm if you have correctly understood that they no longer provide female-only toilets and that all toilets provided for the use of female staff are instead now mixed-sex (using those words).

And then I would argue the law with an emphasis on women being discriminated against by denying you the female-only toilet you are entitled to. (But only if you feel comfortable doing so. There are other ways to approach this if you are worried you will be penalised for asking the question.)

CandyLeBonBon · 15/09/2021 23:56

Sorry. I'm sloppily saying that people who try to ascertain, via one or two studies, that the brain is gendered, are ignoring equalling studies that suggest otherwise. Meaning it's all pretty inconclusive and that the only real difference between make and female brains is relative size.

NiceGerbil · 16/09/2021 00:04

I mean it's nothing to do with anything to do with body.

And I assume no one's suggesting it's anything to do with things like-
Intelligence
Capacity for system types of thinking analytical etc
Preferences around appearance
Resilience
Etc etc

So what is it? This ineffable thing that 4 billion women in the world share. And if a male has it, that doesn't cast doubt on the idea it's 100% sex specific. Every female ever and everywhere. No male can and if they do they are a woman.

This is regressive sexist nonsense. It's only proposed because it matters for a very small number of people who want it to be true. In the process reinvigorating the millennia old idea of male and female brains.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/09/2021 00:41

Their gender is female

Read my lips: a male person's "gender" is irrelevant, it is sex that matters.

GAHgamel · 16/09/2021 02:27

@CharlieParley fabulous post, thank you Flowers

Dipsydoodlenoodle · 16/09/2021 10:51

I think the issues with this person using the male toilets is in order to be accepted as a woman, they need to live as a woman for a certain number of years and this means using the ladies toilets.

My mam used to work with a trans-lady - she used the ladies; my mam said it was weird at first but you just get used to it.

We used to go dancing (very male and female roles) with a trans-lady. Everyone made such an effort with her, but she was such an awful person unfortunately.

I guess, what is making the OP feel uncomfortable? When you are in the toilets it's not like you see each other, you are in a confined cubicle.

CharlieParley · 16/09/2021 11:02

Would you please RTFT, Dipsydoodlenoodle? Many of us have already answered these questions and explained why it is not acceptable for a male adult to use female-only toilets.

Gottalife · 16/09/2021 11:08

@Dipsydoodlenoodle

I think the issues with this person using the male toilets is in order to be accepted as a woman, they need to live as a woman for a certain number of years and this means using the ladies toilets.

My mam used to work with a trans-lady - she used the ladies; my mam said it was weird at first but you just get used to it.

We used to go dancing (very male and female roles) with a trans-lady. Everyone made such an effort with her, but she was such an awful person unfortunately.

I guess, what is making the OP feel uncomfortable? When you are in the toilets it's not like you see each other, you are in a confined cubicle.

Thank you for providing an example of every day reallity. No hysteria.
Artichokeleaves · 16/09/2021 11:11

And no ability to engage with the facts or every day reality for females either.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 16/09/2021 11:17

Anecdote time

I worked with a man who decided to wear stereotypically female clothes to work, grow his hair, wear makeup etc. I haven’t got an issue with any of that, but he did decide to use the ladies toilets, which I do have an issue with.

While in there he made a number of women very uncomfortable with sexualised ‘girl talk’ (we just wanted to pee, ironic or what?)

This was the noughties, so he was asked to stay out of the ladies after people complained and used the disabled mixed sex provision instead

A year later he decided to revert to stereotypically masculine presentation, changed his name back etc. before he’d done his body any irreversible harm thank goodness

What place did that man have making women uncomfortable in their own bloody toilets at work?

titchy · 16/09/2021 11:27

Haven't read the whole thread but I wondered if a query to HR along the lines of 'I notice Sandra is now using the ladies loo on the fifth floor. A couple of female Muslim colleagues were wondering whether you could designate a nearby alternative loo as single SEX, so that they can wash before they pray and adjust their head scarves without risking Sandra as a male seeing them? I'd also feel much less triggered using a single sex loo and look forward to hearing your recommendation.'

Helleofabore · 16/09/2021 11:55

Thank you for providing an example of every day reallity. No hysteria.

So victims of abuse, assault and rape or women with certain religious needs, and any woman who wants spaces to be female only for privacy are ‘hysterical’.

Thanks for being so very clear.

Jellycatspyjamas · 16/09/2021 12:22

That’s a bit disingenuous @titchy and may lead to discrimination against Muslim women, it’s perfectly ok for the OP to be uncomfortable in her own right.

LockdownLisa · 16/09/2021 12:30

@CharlieParley
Thank you so much for that very sensible, measured advice. It really helped to have it spelt out like that. I hope you've saved it somewhere so you can C&P it the next time this is raised!

I'm going to take the weekend to decide what to do but in the meanwhile, thanks again for all of the help and support I've received over the last couple of days. It does help to know I'm not the only one bothered by gender ideology and its impact on women and girls.

OP posts:
FlyingOink · 16/09/2021 13:07

I wonder if it would be useful to log a near miss every day, stating that OP was unable to use the toilet provision at work as there is no single sex facility.
Each one logged would have to be closed off by an investigating manager, and the record would stand.
That should focus their attention on the actual law as CharlieParley has helpfully laid out.

titchy · 16/09/2021 13:33

@Jellycatspyjamas

That’s a bit disingenuous *@titchy* and may lead to discrimination against Muslim women, it’s perfectly ok for the OP to be uncomfortable in her own right.
True, but the equality impact assessment on the grounds of religion is a lot easier to understand and imagine a court case for than the EI impact on natal women.
ArabellaScott · 16/09/2021 13:52

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Anecdote time

I worked with a man who decided to wear stereotypically female clothes to work, grow his hair, wear makeup etc. I haven’t got an issue with any of that, but he did decide to use the ladies toilets, which I do have an issue with.

While in there he made a number of women very uncomfortable with sexualised ‘girl talk’ (we just wanted to pee, ironic or what?)

This was the noughties, so he was asked to stay out of the ladies after people complained and used the disabled mixed sex provision instead

A year later he decided to revert to stereotypically masculine presentation, changed his name back etc. before he’d done his body any irreversible harm thank goodness

What place did that man have making women uncomfortable in their own bloody toilets at work?

Ah, he obviously needed the space to explore his own identity and sexuality, Bernard. Be kind. It's not his fault his words and actions made women uncomfortable, it's their own small minded bigotry. They should have just not listened or looked. In fact, the women were obviously in the wrong, here.
Jellycatspyjamas · 16/09/2021 13:55

True, but the equality impact assessment on the grounds of religion is a lot easier to understand and imagine a court case for than the EI impact on natal women.

So my thinking is, if it’s harder to understand then we need to keep making the argument until people (judges, courts, decision making) get it.

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