How to approach the 'TW in a work loo' issue

[LockdownLisa]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4279797-Workplace-advice-needed?msgid=108499436#108499436

This was my thread from a few weeks ago. My colleague has now come out as trans, which is fine. However, I saw her use the women's toilets today, which is not so fine. We do have self contained disabled toilets which I think would be more appropriate.

All we've had from management is a 'Peter is now Sandra, work systems will be updated to reflect this' type email. There's been very little chat in the office about it so I can't gauge how other people feel about it.

I don't really feel comfortable approaching my section manager as I know I'll just be fobbed off. I was thinking about emailing my HR department (I work for an NHS hospital trust, it's a Stonewall member as I think most of them are) but have no idea how to word it!

Does anybody have any suggestions? I was thinking something very simple like:
'Please can you clarify our policy on which toilets, changing rooms and showers our transgender staff are expected to use?'

I'm the lowest of the low in terms of my banding and although I've held more senior positions than this before, I'm so uncertain how to handle this. I believe (from the previous thread) that women are legally entitled to same sex provision, but fighting for that right in the workplace isn't an easy thing to do, especially from my lowly position 😕.

have a look at sex matters the website/group set up by maya forraster. interesting legal exploration on there
one thing that springs to mind: what type of risk assessment have HR undertaken to allow male bodied, trans women into female single sex toilets? There was a judicial review recently taken against the government regarding trans identifying sex offenders in prisons. the case did not succeed in the sense that the court/judges decided there was sufficient safeguarding in women’s prisons such as to avoid a breach of human rights of the female inmates ( despite one of the judges accepting the rate of risk was 5 to 6 times greater from trans sex offenders to fellow prisoners, they said the sample group was too small, so happy to allow it to continue)
however one thing that came through from this and other cases ( to me) was each authority or organisation should be shown to have taken necessary steps to keep people safe. given single sex toilets exist for a reason, ang given the disproportionate rate of male on female defo sexual violence, surely there is a health and safety argument

Starting to use women's toilets seems to be what transition means to men. It's a watershed for them. The act of going in that door is them "living as a woman". Not for the women that see him in there, it's just a man acting out a performance.

@NiceGerbil I think what a PP has said answers your question about why they wouldn't use the accessible toilet. Which actually pisses me off even more, if that is the case.

I agree that the thread has got slightly derailed. I haven't seen any evidence that TW are more or less likely to be violent than the average man, but in this situation, that's not my issue.

Does anybody have any suggestions? I was thinking something very simple like:
'Please can you clarify our policy on which toilets, changing rooms and showers our transgender staff are expected to use?'

The policy will just be "Use the facilities for the gender you identify with", so that would be a waste of time.

(if they're getting hormones via the NHS, they have to get a brain scan to see if they have a womens brain inside a guys body)

That’s nonsense.

They all have to file past Layla Moran while she checks their souls.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.spectator.co.uk/article/this-mp-has-summed-up-everything-wrong-with-the-transgender-debate/amp

@Helleofabore

I just don’t think it’s anyone else’s business. For someone just getting on with life, their medical history or ‘birth sex’ if you like, is no one else’s business. And certainly not where toilets at work are concerned.

Nice to see that you believe that males who identify as women should simply ignore any distress their use of the female toilets would cause. All ok, as long as the male gets their needs met.

And if they are one of the few that pass, with the help of extensive surgery, gait training and having a naturally small build including hands etc, they should simply crack on knowing that if a colleague happens to find out and it traumatises that colleague, too bad. That traumatised colleague needs to sort out their own trauma. As long as that male gets what they need.

Of course, OP and other colleagues know this person is male.

Not males. Their gender is female. They have just as much right to use the female toilets as any other female. Criticising someones physical appearance when they are probably trying their best NOT to traumatise anyone is just bigotry.

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/sex-and-gender-belief-and-agnosticism-after-forstater/

I'm very pleased to see the idea that women and men have different sorts of brains in some way is still going. And that they have finally found a way to prove it!

The women's brains are different has been used in the past to deny us the vote, positions in government, studying certain subjects, being expected to be predisposed to caring responsibilities etc. And plenty more I'm sure.

Have they scanned large random groups and found how many people are transgender in their brains? It would be really interesting to do it in an area where people haven't heard of the context.

Can it identity genders outside the binary?

This is huge news. Depending on which parts of the brain show a female brain. I have concerns about it being used against us as the idea of our brains being different has led to stuff in the past like but being allowed to be MPs and plenty more.

I think we should have another thread, alpha? This is fascinating. I've not seen it on the news.

Not males. Their gender is female. They have just as much right to use the female toilets as any other female.

What is a 'female gender'? What does that mean, what does it involve?

When did they gain the right to use the female toilets? When they just decided that they want to?

sex-matters.org/where-sex-matters/the-workplace/

So what happens if all the women in the office now decide to use the disabled toilet instead?

The minority actually disabled have their own access restricted due to in being in constant use by the women.

HR now have a headache on their hands when the disabled members of staff complain their isn't adequate provision for them and threaten a discrimination suit (hypothetically).

How does that play out then?

Not males. Their gender is female. They have just as much right to use the female toilets as any other female.

Their biological sex is male, their physiology is male, their chromosomal make up is male. Their gender identity may be female but their sex remains unaltered. I reserve the right not to share toilets or other facilities where I may be undressed or vulnerable with a male.

Have they scanned large random groups and found how many people are transgender in their brains?

Apparently 'studies have been done' which show that trans people have brains more similar with the 'gender they identify with'. However, funnily enough these studies always come with the disclaimer that this doesn't apply to all trans people and that even if a trans woman's brain just looks like any other male brain then that doesn't mean they are not trans.

So it's all very robust and scientific

How come the transwoman's desire to use the women's space matters more than the woman's desire for a single sex space?

Its almost like you're saying one sex matters more than the other (Whatever anyone's feelings about their 'gender')

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Not like male baldness. Removal of testes/ testosterone and oestrogen therapy removes the risk and progression of male pattern baldness.

Because a transsexual person changes some of their physical/ physiological sex characteristics.

Yes, fair point, male pattern violence isn't like male baldness. Male pattern violence is more ingrained in male people as a class.

Isn't removal of testes usually done as a solution for male pattern violence in dogs, horses and cattle? So there is a parallel with baldness.

'Not males. Their gender is female. They have just as much right to use the female toilets as any other female. Criticising someones physical appearance when they are probably trying their best NOT to traumatise anyone is just bigotry.'

Female and male are sex terms. What are your terms for sex if the existing ones all mean internal gender id to you?

Plus

There's a unisex accessible toilet. Yes it's not good to use if you don't need but assuming OPs workplace is like mine have been they are are there to meet legal requirements and in practice used in general by people who are in a situation where they'd like a bit of extra privacy. Why wouldn't this person use that, if concerned about making anyone uncomfortable (traumatised is a pretty major thing let's stick with uncomfortable).

Not males. Their gender is female
Are you late to this debate or have you been out of it for a while?
Its come to pass officially that sex is definitely not the same as gender, therefore a female gender means Jack.
And just in case you were away longer still, the mantra born in the wrong body is also 'gasp' untrue.
Just so you dont embarrass yourself any more.

In all honesty if I transitioned at work I would use the accessible if there was one because it would be bleeding obvious that my make colleagues would not feel comfy me wandering in while they were taking a piss.

How this simple basic understanding of perfectly obvious things is ignored/ labelled bigoted etc is beyond me.

An aside-

The terms male female are being pushed for repurposing and it seems to be creeping in.

Asking I think for about the 5th time on this thread since no one in favour of TW using all and any female provisions seems to ever be able to see or take this on board for some reason:

what are you going to do with the female staff who CANNOT USE a mixed sex space?

How inclusive and intersectional is your transactivism?

Have they scanned large random groups and found how many people are transgender in their brains?

There are lots of studies on brains. Men's, women's and people who are transgender.

The one thing they all seem to agree on is that the brain is very complex, innate sex shows certain physical characteristics and environmental influences mean that it's almost impossible to suggest either way whether male and female brains have an innate gender, because brains are plastic throughout our lifetimes, change according to our experiences, both internal and external, and we therefore just don't have a linear map of male vs female brains and what makes someone make vs female.

From a basic perspective, in the 17th/18th century, (can't remember the fella's name but will if you want) it was determined that there are no physical differences between male and female brains apart from size.

Not males. Their gender is female. They have just as much right to use the female toilets as any other female.

Aren’t you up to date? Nobody is denying the biological sex class they belong to anymore. So we are told. Therefore, they are male and they would know they are male. How they identify their gender has absolutely no impact on the sex class they belong to.

Critising someones physical appearance when they are probably trying their best NOT to traumatise anyone is just bigotry.

Bigotry eh? A woman who is traumatised by a male being in a space they need to be single sex is a bigot?

And the male ‘trying their best’ to not traumatise said woman could simply acknowledge they are male and that they are causing distress and leave the single sex space to be for females only. If they actually cared about the needs of their female colleague, that is.

You lack of awareness and empathy for the needs of females is very clear though.

Critising someones physical appearance when they are probably trying their best NOT to traumatise anyone is just bigotry.
Funny thing about trauma is that it's an involuntary reaction; it doesn't care whether the trigger is intentional or not.

I'm going to ignore the bonkers brain scan post, but for me Artichoke's statement gets to the nub of this:

The whole world does not revolve around male people, their wants, their needs, their feelings and their rights. Female people have rights too. Including to have access to toilets.

There's a key difference between 'wants' and 'needs'.

It's never really been defined by those championing trans rights exactly the nuance between these, probably because the starting point is 'Transwomen are Women' so we're coming at this from very different places.
From what I've seen, a massive % of the trans rights campaign seems to be based on 'what I want' rather than 'what I need'.

But I'm going to take a stab based on reading lots around this from lots of perspectives on the difference between 'wants' and 'needs'.

Males who identify as women :
Need : some of these males who identify as women (not all, see people such as Fionne and Miranda} need spaces away from other males who don't identify as women, as some of those males may reject and potentially be violent to them.

Want : some of those males want to use female spaces for a variety of reasons. a) believe they're truly women b) want the validation of others accepting/tolerating/giving in to their demands that they're women, c) other reasons that must not be named on Mumsnet!

Females
Need : based on evidence, design of space by other campaigning females (and organisations, eg, see many NGOs campaigning for single-sex spaces in refugee camps etc) single-sex facilities for the reasons of privacy, dignity, and also safety.

Want : Some females would like space away from males. Others are fine with sharing all their spaces with males, whether that's in the supposedly benign toilets, to the very real women who are tonight in prison forced to share their shower area or even their cell with males. Right now, in social-media-world, and at organisational and system level, the 'want' from females who are up for sharing all spaces with males who say they're women seem to be overwriting those females who don't want this.

There's a difference between wants and needs - and, as I read somewhere else today, creating policy and law around 'wants' rather than 'needs' is not a good direction of travel.

For the OP, what your colleague 'needs' and what your colleague 'wants' may be two very different things.

Not males. Their gender is female. They have just as much right to use the female toilets as any other female. Criticising someones physical appearance when they are probably trying their best NOT to traumatise anyone is just bigotry.
@Gottalife you seem confused.

Sex = Male/Female
Gender = Masculine/Feminine

Hope that helps.