How to approach the 'TW in a work loo' issue

[LockdownLisa]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4279797-Workplace-advice-needed?msgid=108499436#108499436

This was my thread from a few weeks ago. My colleague has now come out as trans, which is fine. However, I saw her use the women's toilets today, which is not so fine. We do have self contained disabled toilets which I think would be more appropriate.

All we've had from management is a 'Peter is now Sandra, work systems will be updated to reflect this' type email. There's been very little chat in the office about it so I can't gauge how other people feel about it.

I don't really feel comfortable approaching my section manager as I know I'll just be fobbed off. I was thinking about emailing my HR department (I work for an NHS hospital trust, it's a Stonewall member as I think most of them are) but have no idea how to word it!

Does anybody have any suggestions? I was thinking something very simple like:
'Please can you clarify our policy on which toilets, changing rooms and showers our transgender staff are expected to use?'

I'm the lowest of the low in terms of my banding and although I've held more senior positions than this before, I'm so uncertain how to handle this. I believe (from the previous thread) that women are legally entitled to same sex provision, but fighting for that right in the workplace isn't an easy thing to do, especially from my lowly position 😕.

Reading more, catching up.

I don't identify as a woman.

The how do you identify stuff is recent.

I am a person. I want to be a person. I have been confused, angry, upset, frustrated, limited. All my life since a small child. By other people treating me in various ways. That I noticed and disliked. Intensely. From as far back as I can remember.

That's why I'm a feminist. It's deep in my bones. Always. Not learnt. Natural. It's who I am.

I have always wanted to be treated as a person. That's all. Not that female. Girl. Woman. Is the important thing.

And now I'm told that I have something in my brain that makes me ... Comfortable with that. I mean. It's massively offensive.

It dismisses my whole... Everything.

By definition according to stonewall I'm trans.

I don't accept that definition.

I don't accept the redefinition of our words.

I don't accept what this redefinition means for women here and around the world.

Sex matters. To deny that is reckless, cruel and to be honest. It's obscene.

Toilet threads are like TRA catnip grin

can only assume the usual bat signal has gone out

Or maybe, you know, just maybe, it's because not everyone agrees with you.

@Quaggars

Toilet threads are like TRA catnip grin

can only assume the usual bat signal has gone out

Or maybe, you know, just maybe, it's because not everyone agrees with you.

They never turn up on the 'rapists in women's prisons' or single-sex rape crisis centres or sports ones, though.

It's a puzzle.

Or to comment on the latest developments in the Wi Spa incident.

I wonder why?

@Waitwhat23

Or to comment on the latest developments in the Wi Spa incident.

I wonder why?

What's Wi Spa???

@coolstorybruh www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4338925-Good-news-on-the-WI-Spa-incident#prettyPhoto

Long story. Really long.

Essence is.

Korean spa in California has male female mixed. It's the norm to be naked (mixed shorts though more covered.

Bunch of women and girls come out one woman talks to reception. Dick in the place. Female children there. Video of angry woman.

Spa says not our problem it's the law. Bloke comes and tells her off if in female then must be trans STFU.

Hooha protests violence (blokes v blokes shocker).

Woman who complained turns out to be right wing Christian type. This means she is lying. Also. Whole thing was a complex hoax. Also. What's the prob with cock just skin. Female spa types including female children should not be looking (notice) that's rude. Blah blah.

Turns out penis person has history of criminal activity including exposure etc. Been arrested. 5 women reported.

However!!!

Because the original woman was a fairly hard core Christian.

And because you know. Dick just skin be nice. Even if you're 9.

Even though criminal record of all sorts including exposure a good while back in another women only space.

I've seen....

Thing is you see. The previous convictions related to sex offences are actually to do with a trans woman being targeted and picked on by the police.

They are a victim of a cruel transphobic system. Persecuted.

They are the victim here.

So there you go.

In the end those who get online and are strongly involved in this will NEVER accept there has been or could be any issues.

TWAW
Whatever ID is stated should be immediately accepted and respected
The women and girls in WiSpa need to get over their irrational reaction to random cock in naked women spa
Prison should respect gender ID and anything that happens when a male sex offender is in with women is a risk they should be managing because women do it too
Any concerns from women about losing their ability to get random men out of bogs changing etc are ridiculous because if a man wants to rape then he's going to do that and there's nothing women or girls can do anyway

Blah blah blah

I'm so fucking bored with this.

@Quaggars

Toilet threads are like TRA catnip grin

can only assume the usual bat signal has gone out

Or maybe, you know, just maybe, it's because not everyone agrees with you.

Quaggars

You've been on here a long time.

I simply cannot understand why you cannot see any issues. Be it risk, discomfort, stopping going at all.

With males being in anything and everything that was single sex and for females before.

Can you explain in basic terms why it's important to change single sex to single gender?

And why the reason they existed in the first place is no longer relevant?

In the end. The fact is that losing the ability to say you shouldn't be here. Or to get a bouncer etc if there's anyone. For girls to learn that if they're getting undressed in a communal space and a man is getting undressed as well that's perfectly fine. That seeing a penis is nothing remarkable it's just a bit of skin...

I don't get it.

We've both been on here for yonks.

Do you genuinely see no issues at all.

If not. How come?

I simply cannot understand this utter dismissal of the fact. Globally. And forever. Of the fact that there are masses of creepy pervy men about.

Or is it a balancing thing where the risks etc of one group are simply more important than the other group?

I've read the whole thread. I've yet to see an answer to why it's females responsibility to mitigate the risk of potential male on male violence in toilets.

If the males in my workplace were so violent that another male (regardless of how they identify) didn't want to share a facility with them, I certainly wouldn't be comfortable with opening up female spaces to males.

Women do not exist as shields, enhancements, or costumes to the male experience. We are human beings with our own wants, needs and rights.

If the activists had campaigned for safe 3rd space provisions, I would have happily lent my voice to the cause. Instead we have males trying to bully their way into female spaces (let's not pretend it's just toilets, it's scholarships, sports, board positions, prisons etc).

I just want to pee. Why can't males be kind and respect that. Where is my consideration?

For those who say it never happens, it's not that big of a deal, why would a male in the toilet make you uncomfortable, let me tell you a story:

When visiting a pub, it took my then 2 year old child to the toilet as both of us needed to go. As as soon as I entered a male (clearly a male, no passing or attempt to "live as a woman") had the cubicle wide open, trousers around his ankle and leg cocked up on the cistern taking a piss. As I entered, he looked over his shoulder made direct eye contact with me, smirked, and quite clearly stroked himself in pleasure. I turned around and left asap. Both me and my child still needed to pee. I just wanted to pee but me and my young child were both exposed to a sex pest while we wanted to pee. My child had to witness that, and his mother fleeing a toilet designed specifically for her in fear.

So, no, I don't want ANY kind of males in female spaces. No thank you.

So, no, I don't want ANY kind of males in female spaces. No thank you.

Exactly. It doesn’t MATTER whether the male in question is genuinely trans or pretending to be trans. We don’t know, we don’t care. Allowing one male into a women’s toilet is the same as allowing all of them in, because if challenged, which they won’t be, they know the magic words.

For those who simply cannot believe that women can tell the difference between male and female, I posted this on the break it down for me thread recently.

This is an old study done on ability to read sex from faces.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8474840/

Sex discrimination: how do we tell the difference between male and female faces?
V Bruce et al. Perception. 1993.

Abstract

People are remarkably accurate (approaching ceiling) at deciding whether faces are male or female, even when cues from hair style, makeup, and facial hair are minimised.

It all boils down to two separate views. All of it does.

view 1: Female single sex spaces should primarily meet female needs and female needs and diversity should be fully met in any changes made to include non female people

view 2: Female single sex spaces should prioritise male users, and any cost to female users is justified if male people are properly served by those spaces. It is not important to meet all the needs of female people or necessary to treat them with the care with which male born people should be treated. This is especially the case for female people who refuse (regardless of reason) to put male needs above their own.

One of these views is male supremacist and anything but inclusive.

@Artichokeleaves

It all boils down to two separate views. All of it does.

view 1: Female single sex spaces should primarily meet female needs and female needs and diversity should be fully met in any changes made to include non female people

view 2: Female single sex spaces should prioritise male users, and any cost to female users is justified if male people are properly served by those spaces. It is not important to meet all the needs of female people or necessary to treat them with the care with which male born people should be treated. This is especially the case for female people who refuse (regardless of reason) to put male needs above their own.

One of these views is male supremacist and anything but inclusive.

Yes! This.

I'd like to agree with the comment asking why men can't be kind and keep their penises out of female spaces. Why make women feel uncomfortable...they would be better getting therapy or requesting a third space.