How to approach the 'TW in a work loo' issue

[LockdownLisa]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4279797-Workplace-advice-needed?msgid=108499436#108499436

This was my thread from a few weeks ago. My colleague has now come out as trans, which is fine. However, I saw her use the women's toilets today, which is not so fine. We do have self contained disabled toilets which I think would be more appropriate.

All we've had from management is a 'Peter is now Sandra, work systems will be updated to reflect this' type email. There's been very little chat in the office about it so I can't gauge how other people feel about it.

I don't really feel comfortable approaching my section manager as I know I'll just be fobbed off. I was thinking about emailing my HR department (I work for an NHS hospital trust, it's a Stonewall member as I think most of them are) but have no idea how to word it!

Does anybody have any suggestions? I was thinking something very simple like:
'Please can you clarify our policy on which toilets, changing rooms and showers our transgender staff are expected to use?'

I'm the lowest of the low in terms of my banding and although I've held more senior positions than this before, I'm so uncertain how to handle this. I believe (from the previous thread) that women are legally entitled to same sex provision, but fighting for that right in the workplace isn't an easy thing to do, especially from my lowly position 😕.

I just think compassion and kindness goes a long way.

Tell that to the 10 year old raped by a trans woman in Tesco.

@Kit19 It's hard to accept that men just don't "get it", isn't it? For so many women, reliance on same-sex facilities is very visceral, not a deeply thought out philosophical position but just - what a person expects, what she knows to be safest.

One of the most well-known examples of a gay man who definitely used women's toilets was Freddie Mercury, who was quite odd about toilets in general (seems to have been pretty scared of them, had to be "taken" and couldn't go on his own). Obviously he didn't use the ladies all the time, but it was a known thing that he'd go with female friends. Now I adore the guy - I certainly wouldn't see him as a threat - but I still don't think it was right for him to enter a single sex space.

Nor for other gay men to. I do believe some feel legitimately threatened or unsafe, and I can see why it may feel like an easy solution - but I don't think it is.

@Emimummy

And to make it clear, I understand the point about someone pretending to identify as a woman and that is pretty sick and i don't know how the heck you would even tackle that. I'm just concentrating on the fact that i have no problem with a work colleague who use to be male who is now fully embracing being female, using the female toilets.

Oh I know how you tackle it - insist on sex segregated facilities. It's dead easy. And conveniently it's the law.

How do you live as a female without resorting to stereotypes around dress hair & make up

Also men being violent to other men is not woman’s job to solve and how to wr keep out violent men if all that’s required ti be a woman is to say that you are one?

And to make it clear, I understand the point about someone pretending to identify as a woman and that is pretty sick and i don't know how the heck you would even tackle that. I'm just concentrating on the fact that i have no problem with a work colleague who use to be male who is now fully embracing being female, using the female toilets.

Also why would you describe this person as "fully embracing being female"? That's discriminating against non-binary people who might also want to use the women's toilets.

What does this embrace look like? I have a feeling I might not qualify as "fully embracing being female" but I would like to check.

If the person is a decent human being they would respect sex differences , sex based rights , and the feelings of others

@Emimummy

And to make it clear, I understand the point about someone pretending to identify as a woman and that is pretty sick and i don't know how the heck you would even tackle that. I'm just concentrating on the fact that i have no problem with a work colleague who use to be male who is now fully embracing being female, using the female toilets.

How do you tell the difference between someone pretending to identify as a woman and someone who really identifies as a woman?

Just think of what they have been through to get to this point, to then not have support from their own colleague

Have you ever thought what some women go through to heal from trauma from Males ?

Do you have any concept of what they go through when they are confronted with an male in a space they need to remain female?

Good to see though all your empathy goes to the male sex.

Maybe I'm missing a huge point, I just cannot see what the issue is if someone feels and openly identifies as a woman, they are trying their best to fully embrace being a woman, but another woman gets to tell them no sorry you can't use our toilets as it makes me feel uncomfortable? it feels a bit like a mean girl situation 'sorry you can't sit with us' what because they weren't born female?

if this person truly identifies as female and is fully living their life as female who are we to say they can't have a wee in the bloody toilets?

How does a male person 'fully embrace being a woman' or 'fully live their life as female'?

And if someone wasn't born female they will never be female no matter how much they think they want to be female. People can't change sex.

Just think of what they have been through to get to this point

What have they been through? I don't think changing name and pronouns and (possibly) putting on a dress and a bit of make up is 'going through' very much. Am I missing something?

I just think compassion and kindness goes a long way.

Just not extended to women who need their spaces single sex. Obviously. Not to them.

I completely get that it is a tricky situation and do understand why there needs to be rights set out. I just couldn't see myself getting upset with a colleague who I knew genuinely wants to live as female in every way, and stopping them using the female toilets as a female would.

Out of interest, if you had a new female colleague join the company, and then a few months down the line they mention to you that actually they were born male but are now female, would you still feel uncomfortable using the female toilets with them in there?

@Emimummy could you explain what “living as a woman” entails. What would someone have to do to live as a woman?

If this person truly identifies as female and is fully living their life as female who are we to say they can't have a wee in the bloody toilets? If you know this person is a decent human being why can't compassion be shown?

I will show compassion to someone who needs support, but compassion does not require that I must give them everything that they ask for regardless of how bad it is for my and the rest of my sex.

A male person who "truly identifies as female" is saying being female is only a state of mind.

They are saying that a life lived in a female body, being treated the way our society treats people with female bodies (some of it good, some of it very very bad) is entirely the same as a life lived in a male body imagining one had been born female.

As a person who was born in a female body - in fact, born as a female body, because our minds are not separate to our bodies but produced by our bodies - I find that incredibly insulting and also dangerous, because it is downplaying the things society does to us and not to males so that a male can hand wave them away as not important to how women experience their lives.

I 100% support the right of male people to live as femininely as they want to. I'm sure we as female people have many common causes with feminine males. But we are not the same, and we are not accessories to use to shore up their self image.

I will not negate my own voice, story and identity, and anyone who would ask me to that does not deserve my compassion at all.

Why on earth do people think that a woman could not tell the new female was male?

I guess if they have had some very expensive cosmetic surgery (including brow shaving and Adam’s apple changes) , voice training and gait training for their walking, maybe.

Seeing posed pictures or videos are rather different to real life contact in a work situation.

Are you new to all this @Emimummy??
Yes you are missing a 'huge point'- no maybe about it
Try 'break it down for me' : it's a good enlightening read

How do we know the female toilets we use aren't already shared with people that were once male? It probably happens quite often and we are none the wiser and go about out lives.

Oh good grief , if we don't know then don't tell as just laugh behind our backs

Oh @Emimummy!

Our whole lives as women are predicated on us being able to identify men at 100 paces. Can you really not?!

@Emimummy

I completely get that it is a tricky situation and do understand why there needs to be rights set out. I just couldn't see myself getting upset with a colleague who I knew genuinely wants to live as female in every way, and stopping them using the female toilets as a female would.

Out of interest, if you had a new female colleague join the company, and then a few months down the line they mention to you that actually they were born male but are now female, would you still feel uncomfortable using the female toilets with them in there?

Out of interest, if you encountered a large stubbly male stranger in the toilet, would you think 'ah it's ok they're living as a female?'.

Or feel uncomfortable?

It's not about nice Phil/ippa from Marketing. It's every single male that wants into women's safe spaces. There's no criteria that lets in the genuine transitioners and keeps out the chancers. And we can't tell the difference until something goes wrong.

Women are not collateral damage in the interests of males not being sad. So we need a boundary.

How do we know the female toilets we use aren't already shared with people that were once male? It probably happens quite often and we are none the wiser and go about out lives.

Isn't that "passing privilege"? Not all transwomen have the ability to pass as women, you know.

heavily filtered social media photos/professionally posed photos are not the reality. We can tell

Maybe I'm missing a huge point,

Yes, you certainly are. If you had RTFT, you might know what you're missing, but evidently you didn't bother.

So here it is: female people are fully realised humans who have rights under UK law. Now your comment strongly suggests you either don't understand the principle of female people having rights, or you don't agree with female people having rights, but thankfully our rights do not depend on whether you or a male person decide we get to have them or not.

I just cannot see what the issue is if someone feels and openly identifies as a woman, they are trying their best to fully embrace being a woman,

I don't believe in your quasi-religious beliefs of people being able to change sex. I am under no obligation whatsoever to share this belief or to surrender to this frankly antediluvian notion that a male person wearing feminine-coded attire is "fully embracing being a woman". Do you even hear yourself? Women are not a thought in a man's head or a costume for him to wear. We are - to repeat myself - adult human females and fully realised human beings in our own right. There is no way for a male person to "fully embrace being a woman" that does not involve him embracing the very stereotypes the male sex has used to oppress the female sex for thousands of years. It is offensive and abusive to pretend that women are the embodiment of the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes men used to keep us unequal. I am astonished that you fail to understand something so very basic.

but another woman gets to tell them no sorry you can't use our toilets as it makes me feel uncomfortable?

Yes she does. Do you know why? Because she has rights. And her discomfort matters. It matters just as much as his and that means he does not get to ignore her discomfort with impunity.

it feels a bit like a mean girl situation 'sorry you can't sit with us' what because they weren't born female?

The only mean girl in this situation is the one who shames a fellow woman for not surrendering her rights to a man.

if this person truly identifies as female and is fully living their life as female who are we to say they can't have a wee in the bloody toilets?

We are people who have rights of our own. That's who we are. And who are you to give my rights away? Shall I consent on your behalf to things you do not wish to happen? Why not?

Because consent is not transferable.

That's If you know this person is a decent human being why can't compassion be shown?

Because including a man in the female-only toilets excludes many women from their own space. Why can't compassion be shown to them? Are they not decent humans?

Lots of valid points that I do agree with but I still don't feel comfortable shunning someone and making them use the male toilets when they genuinely live as a woman. I know its a hard area and can't be policed really so i guess we just need to build a shit ton of toilets to cover every possible situation...

No one said make them use the male toilets. The workplace must provide toilets for men and women, they need to provide accessible toilets, and they can also provide mixed sex toilets for everyone who is happy to use them.