How to approach the 'TW in a work loo' issue

[LockdownLisa]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4279797-Workplace-advice-needed?msgid=108499436#108499436

This was my thread from a few weeks ago. My colleague has now come out as trans, which is fine. However, I saw her use the women's toilets today, which is not so fine. We do have self contained disabled toilets which I think would be more appropriate.

All we've had from management is a 'Peter is now Sandra, work systems will be updated to reflect this' type email. There's been very little chat in the office about it so I can't gauge how other people feel about it.

I don't really feel comfortable approaching my section manager as I know I'll just be fobbed off. I was thinking about emailing my HR department (I work for an NHS hospital trust, it's a Stonewall member as I think most of them are) but have no idea how to word it!

Does anybody have any suggestions? I was thinking something very simple like:
'Please can you clarify our policy on which toilets, changing rooms and showers our transgender staff are expected to use?'

I'm the lowest of the low in terms of my banding and although I've held more senior positions than this before, I'm so uncertain how to handle this. I believe (from the previous thread) that women are legally entitled to same sex provision, but fighting for that right in the workplace isn't an easy thing to do, especially from my lowly position 😕.

Are you happy letting anyone into the ladies if they don't feel comfortable in the gents ?

Like Kevin who finds the gents smelly?
Or Gary who finds the walk to the gents too long as it's upstairs ?
Or Philip who had a run in with steve ?

@Emimummy

Lots of valid points that I do agree with but I still don't feel comfortable shunning someone and making them use the male toilets when they genuinely live as a woman. I know its a hard area and can't be policed really so i guess we just need to build a shit ton of toilets to cover every possible situation...

You've mentioned male people who 'live as a woman' a few times now. Can you explain exactly how a male person goes about 'living as a woman'?

I don't know how anyone can 'live as a woman' other than being born female and living as a human being.

making them use the male toilets when they genuinely live as a woman
Your defence of this theoretical transwoman isn't supportive enough. That's what I'm trying to point out.
If you accept one person because they've made enough of an effort to convince you that they're serious, then you are potentially excluding men who identify as non-binary, men who identify as women but who have skin conditions and can't shave their face, men who can't afford women's clothes or shoes in their size, etc.
You're making a judgement on how "genuine" someone is and you'd get torn apart for that by a lot of activists.
You are trying to be "nice" (although you're giving away something that isn't yours to give, which isn't very nice) but even then you have some conditions in your head that this hypothetical person should meet.
It's pretty much impossible to gauge how "genuine" someone is. I wouldn't use it as a guide for anything.

Shame you 'don't know' i'm sure you'll figure it out one day. Good luck

@Emimummy

Shame you 'don't know' i'm sure you'll figure it out one day. Good luck

Was that to me?

Are you unable to explain how a male person can 'live as a woman'?

So can I assume you don't know either? You think that male people can live as women but you don't know how they can do this? It doesn't seem a very good argument if you can't clarify the most basic points.

Shame you 'don't know' i'm sure you'll figure it out one day. Good luck

Right I get you’re being snarky but the fact that so many women, me included, have literally no idea what “living as a woman” means is what underpins this whole discussion.

About a decade ago, on this site, a poster asked me how I knew I was a woman. I said I just knew but she pushed me to really think and eventually that question took me on a journey of learning and enlightenment.

I really recommend you think about what living as a woman means. Because it’s the key to everything.

There is no arguement OldCrone you are asking questions we all know the answer to. This has been a very cool evening but I want to go read the Christmas threads now, take care :)

it feels a bit like a mean girl situation 'sorry you can't sit with us' what because they weren't born female?

Is that a policy you would apply to all males who would prefer to use the female toilets?

There is no arguement OldCrone you are asking questions we all know the answer to.

No we don't, and no one can ever answer them, you included. Because I think somehow you know it's patent nonsense. Enjoy the Christmas threads!

Oh I know!!! Stereotypes!!!! That is how someone knows they are living like a woman. Whoodathunkit! Silly us.

For me, living as woman means:

Mothering my DC
Suffering a debilitating period every month
Knowing that my biology makes me vulnerable

These are the experiences I have specifically because I’m a woman. I’m open to other suggestions @Emimummy

@Ereshkigalangcleg

There is no arguement OldCrone you are asking questions we all know the answer to.

No we don't, and no one can ever answer them, you included. Because I think somehow you know it's patent nonsense. Enjoy the Christmas threads!

I really could but it would then cause everyone to give their opinions on it which is great but I really do want to just go look at the bargain christmas thread now sorry! honestly i do appreciate everyones opinions they are very interesting but now onto something a bit more fun!

You really can't, and we all know that.

@Emimummy

There is no arguement OldCrone you are asking questions we all know the answer to. This has been a very cool evening but I want to go read the Christmas threads now, take care :)

Of course, you're right. These are the obvious answers.

You're unable to explain how a male person can 'live as a woman'.

You think that male people can live as women but you don't know how they can do this.

You have no facts to back up your assertions.

@Emimummy

And to make it clear, I understand the point about someone pretending to identify as a woman and that is pretty sick and i don't know how the heck you would even tackle that. I'm just concentrating on the fact that i have no problem with a work colleague who use to be male who is now fully embracing being female, using the female toilets.

Right and you agree nothing physical has to happen so how do YOU tell who is genuine and who is the pervert?

I, too, would like to know what it means to 'live as a woman'.

I wear make-up but plenty of my female friends don't. They are still women. Some women change their names upon marriage. Others keep them. They are still women too.

If someone refuses to answer this question, I can only assume they have no answer.

I really could but it would then cause everyone to give their opinions on it which is great

I wish you would, because I have no idea what it means for a man to live fully as a woman. I’d appreciate your enlightenment on this. I suspect you won’t, because it’s not possible for you to do so without relying on stereotypes around appearance, or some vague “female” way of thinking - and I think you know that simply doesn’t stack up.

No-one can ever answer that question, can they? We 'all know the answer' but those who are determined that we 'be kind' can't state it without resorting to gender stereotypes (long hair, wears dresses, nail polish etc) or a nonsensical circular definition.

There's reduced plastic tat to buy though!

@Emimummy

Lots of valid points that I do agree with but I still don't feel comfortable shunning someone and making them use the male toilets when they genuinely live as a woman. I know its a hard area and can't be policed really so i guess we just need to build a shit ton of toilets to cover every possible situation...

just need to build a shit ton of toilets to cover every possible situation

Why? I mean genuinely, why? What is it about gender identity that means people with the same identity need to pee together?

I know why we have different toilet facilities for people of different sexes but I don't understand why we suddenly don't need those any more but we do need them for different genders.

If the problem for gender non-confirming males is male-on-male violence, then let's deal with that directly instead of pussy-footing around moving everyone the macho boys don't like out of their way.

If the problem is that trans women don't like being reminded that they are not female then let's deal with that directly, by getting rid of the ridiculous idea of "cis women" and just accepting bodies have nothing to do with personalities beyond the socialisation that is forced onto us.

While we deal with it, of course we can set up not "a shit ton of toilets" but just some mixed sex ones where people who for whatever reason don't want to pee with others of their sex can go, and people who want to compassionately support them can also go.

Although let's be very clear, toilets really aren't the biggest thing for me.

I'd be very happy to find a compromise and that might even be one that includes trans women in the ladies toilets, but I can't do that while the people making demands are doing it as part of their overall erasure of female people as a meaningful social, legal or political entity.

So maybe they should stop doing that first, then we can talk about peeing in peace.

@Emimummy

Lots of valid points that I do agree with but I still don't feel comfortable shunning someone and making them use the male toilets when they genuinely live as a woman. I know its a hard area and can't be policed really so i guess we just need to build a shit ton of toilets to cover every possible situation...

Why are you adding in shunning to that?

Don't bother with the Christmas bargains, Emimummy, just giftwrap women's rights - cover them in glitter while you're at it, why don't you - and give them away. I honestly can't work out whether you are disingenuous or just staggeringly ignorant.
#BeKind? #MyArse

@FlyingOink

handsy but not totally obvious And that comes across as really crass, tbh

Yes but it's reality.

Women put up with an awful lot in the workplace because they don't want to make a fuss.

In my working life I've sat and listened to all sorts of shit. Groups of men chatting about going to strip clubs. Casual talk about opportunities to get a prostitute on overnights with work. Had these things raised in front of me as a power play.

In my industry that's something that happens.

And in reality confronting esp when young feels.. impossible.

Work is tricky with this stuff.

In the end the thing for this person to do would be to use the accessible.

Out of consideration.

That option is available but not taken. And that says a lot to me tbh.

I really could but it would then cause everyone to give their opinions on it which is great but I really do want to just go look at the bargain christmas thread now sorry! honestly i do appreciate everyones opinions they are very interesting but now onto something a bit more fun

You actually could never explain it, no one ever can.
But you think your Christmas bargains are so much more important than womens rights? Well ok then. You do you because women like me will keep your rights enshrined in law ( we hope)

@Emimummy

Just to add, they are a human being with feelings just like you, don't make them feel like an alien. Its just somewhere to have a wee! do you think they are going to stand up and wee all over the seat that you then have to sit on? I just don't understand the real issue, and there shouldn't be any uncomfortableness either, again, human being we are talking about, one that is trying to fully embrace being a woman, they aren't going into the womens bathroom for anything bad! this world has gone mad.

And if Shital who is a long term colleague and friend through socialising comes out as Ramesh and immediately starts using the gents. So men who have known Shital for years comes in while they're at the urinal. They should have accepted Ramesh as male immediately and feel totally comfy?

I think it would not be comfy for them. At all.

Those who say it's wrong not to be totally ok.

Can you genuinely see no reason for the men to not feel any discomfort?