How to approach the 'TW in a work loo' issue

[LockdownLisa]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4279797-Workplace-advice-needed?msgid=108499436#108499436

This was my thread from a few weeks ago. My colleague has now come out as trans, which is fine. However, I saw her use the women's toilets today, which is not so fine. We do have self contained disabled toilets which I think would be more appropriate.

All we've had from management is a 'Peter is now Sandra, work systems will be updated to reflect this' type email. There's been very little chat in the office about it so I can't gauge how other people feel about it.

I don't really feel comfortable approaching my section manager as I know I'll just be fobbed off. I was thinking about emailing my HR department (I work for an NHS hospital trust, it's a Stonewall member as I think most of them are) but have no idea how to word it!

Does anybody have any suggestions? I was thinking something very simple like:
'Please can you clarify our policy on which toilets, changing rooms and showers our transgender staff are expected to use?'

I'm the lowest of the low in terms of my banding and although I've held more senior positions than this before, I'm so uncertain how to handle this. I believe (from the previous thread) that women are legally entitled to same sex provision, but fighting for that right in the workplace isn't an easy thing to do, especially from my lowly position 😕.

@Jellycatspyjamas

True, but the equality impact assessment on the grounds of religion is a lot easier to understand and imagine a court case for than the EI impact on natal women.

So my thinking is, if it’s harder to understand then we need to keep making the argument until people (judges, courts, decision making) get it.

Wholly agree.

In fact the really key question is: why is it so hard to understand and respect the EI impact on natal women?

Why are these issues seen entirely from the point of view of the needs of the male?

Why is shaming and criticism and questioning (what need? Is that real? Is that reasonable? Can't you get over it?) and expectation of tolerance directed entirely at females in female spaces when negatively affected by male entrants, but never at the males?

Lets face up to the misogyny here.

Ei assessments are just for public sector aren't they though

I don't know, there should be an impact assessment or a risk assessment if something like this comes up, private sector employers have employer liability insurance.
It would be interesting to know what the insurers think. Have they already factored in a potential increase in incidents and changed premiums across the board? I would have, if that was my industry.

This example has been held up as a great positive example of how it should be. Think it was something like no hoo ha no problem

'My mam used to work with a trans-lady - she used the ladies; my mam said it was weird at first but you just get used to it.'

This is hardly great though is it.

Weird
Got used to it

So women are expected to put up with a level of discomfort, ignore it, and hope that as with posters mum they just get used to it?

And for places where there's eg communal undressing then I suppose it's a given that the women will take a lot longer in the 'weird' stage, which might go from weird to really uncomfortable due to the situation, and some may never 'get used to it'.

And all the situations where it's not one person you know but a stranger you just happen to be in the same place as?

PPs mums story sounds how plenty of women would feel with the work thing in the OP. But It's no guarantee that all women will be prepared to go through the 'weird' stage. Or do it at all.

Also any new women would also have to go through the weird then get used to it process.

If that's a good example of how it should be. Then it shows an understanding and expectation that women will experience some level of discomfort. And if they do, then they just need to push themselves until they 'get used to it'.

Tbh I doubt it will have even occurred to the employers that it's risk assessment Territory.

And I doubt the insurers have this on their radar either. Rates tend to be on past experience and across this class I can't see there being impact even if there was an incident or two.

And incident wise. What are you thinking of?
Violent well that's vanishingly unlikely.
Sexual well rarely reported if things like handsy but not totally obvious and if serious and persistent and multiple victims I'd really have thought they would have been shopped.

This work scenario is really very different to the public places type ones.

In this case it's about the simple fact that many women are uncomfortable ranging to feeling totally unable to share these facilities at work and that in itself is more than enough reason to keep them single sex as they were intended.

Out of interest did your colleague just change over night or were they wearing more feminine attire, hair etc? It's bloody amazing that they can change the systems when they couldn't correct my name to right spelling ( also NHS trust )

I totally think the toilet issue is worth fighting about it's how to word it correctly ?

This work scenario is really very different to the public places type ones.
Agreed. But it also means those people who use the facilities are under contract and are bound by whatever policies the employer has in place, so a higher standard of behaviour is expected.
Put simply, if a man puts a spy camera in a shopping centre toilet it's not necessarily the shopping centre's fault. They could well have a policy of ejecting men from the women's toilets. (I doubt it, but you never know.) Whereas if the same thing happens in a workplace (and it has done) then the fact the man has been given express permission to be in there makes it easier for him to commit that crime. The employer's policy has added to the risk.
Bearing in mind that it's not illegal to enter the "wrong" toilets, and that self-id isn't law either, a lot depends on local policies.
And as PP have pointed out, if the tactic of "wait til something happens then complain if it does" is good enough for women, it's good enough for men in dresses who want to continue using the gents' facilities.

handsy but not totally obvious
And that comes across as really crass, tbh

@aBirdToldMeAboutIt

"How to approach the 'TW in a work loo' issue"

If you're feeling uncomfortable sharing the toilets with another woman, whether trans or not, then you always have the option of using the self contained disabled toilets, which you obviously accept would be appropriate to be used by an abled person.

Although the the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 govern the provision of toilets in the workplace, it does not cover the use of those toilets. Unless you are employed to clean those toilets, those toilets are a service provided to employees by an employer. In regards to both employment law and the use of services, the Equality Act 2010 applies.

As noted in the Statutory Codes of Practice, it is unlawful to bar a trans person from using services or facilities of their expressed gender unless doing so is a "proportionate means to a legitimate ends", can be "objectively justified" that such an act of discrimination is appropriate— that the use of those toilets by a trans person means that no other person would use them and no other provision is available, and it is objectively justifiable that other people would not use the toilets if a trans person uses them—that the use of the exception is, by its nature, exceptional and requires a high bar to be proved to be a lawful act of discrimination, and must be justified to the use of the toilets by that specific trans person. In your case, your employer would not begin to meet those conditions, even if they wished to use the appropriate exemption in the Equality Act 2010. Which as you've already pointed out, they do not.

As for what happens if an employer attempts to stop a trans person using the toilets of their choice, or allows employees to harass or otherwise discriminate against an trans person using those toilets, please see Case No: 2206063/2017 and Case No: 1304471/2018 as examples of an employer who, inter alia, allowed this to happen or directly engaged in stopping a trans person from using the toilets of their choice.

Transwomen are male. If a single cubicle unisex facility is available then a TW should have the sensitivity to be flexible around the needs of others and not expect females to vacate their own facilities to make way for them. The sense of entitlement here leaves me speechless.

There are occasional examples in history (recent-ish) of men who are not trans, but - for example - gay, and additionally vulnerable in some way, using the women's toilets alongside female friends. It's always struck me as a problematic behaviour to engage in, even with those qualifying aspects (not entering alone, no sexual intent). They are still male people and have/had great potential to be disquieting to women. It does illustrate that such anxieties can exist outside of the current gender debates, though, even if they were much less common.

If I had a colleague at work, who was brave enough to come out as a trans, I would fully embrace them and not get upset over something as silly as them using the same bathroom as me! Just think of what they have been through to get to this point, to then not have support from their own colleague? all over a bathroom? This is likely to be a very difficult time for your colleague and if you can't support them then certainly don't go out of your way to make it more difficult for them.

Just to add, they are a human being with feelings just like you, don't make them feel like an alien. Its just somewhere to have a wee! do you think they are going to stand up and wee all over the seat that you then have to sit on? I just don't understand the real issue, and there shouldn't be any uncomfortableness either, again, human being we are talking about, one that is trying to fully embrace being a woman, they aren't going into the womens bathroom for anything bad! this world has gone mad.

@Emimummy

If I had a colleague at work, who was brave enough to come out as a trans, I would fully embrace them and not get upset over something as silly as them using the same bathroom as me! Just think of what they have been through to get to this point, to then not have support from their own colleague? all over a bathroom? This is likely to be a very difficult time for your colleague and if you can't support them then certainly don't go out of your way to make it more difficult for them.

Oh please do tell us what they went through?

Was it a name change? Well back in 19mumblemumble I got married and changed my name. No one gave a shit.
Is it clothing? Well the last time this woman wore a dress was a wedding about 4 years ago, so by that reckoning im a bloke cos I wear mens clothing.
Do you mean hormones or surgery? The hormones , well some do some dont because to be a transwoman all you have to do is say the words. No other requirements, none at all.
Is it the surgery, well let me tell you hardly any of them have surgery. Plus its unnecessary as absolutely nothing has to alter to become a transwoman.
So please do enlighten us all with your wisdom of what they do to become trans.

It doesn't have to be anything physical

@Innocenta

There are occasional examples in history (recent-ish) of men who are not trans, but - for example - gay, and additionally vulnerable in some way, using the women's toilets alongside female friends. It's always struck me as a problematic behaviour to engage in, even with those qualifying aspects (not entering alone, no sexual intent). They are still male people and have/had great potential to be disquieting to women. It does illustrate that such anxieties can exist outside of the current gender debates, though, even if they were much less common.

A friend of a friend is a teacher. He said to me in all seriousness that they were having terrible problems with a gay pupil being bullied in the loos so they let him use the girls. I asked what the girls thought and he just handwaved it away with "oooh they dont mind, they're much nicer than the boys"

I mean where do you even start??

But @Emimummy Why does "everything" that this TW has gone through supersede the right of women to privacy and dignity. Why does "everything" this TW has gone through supersede the need, as highlighted upthread, for example for hiMuslim women to feel comfortable to adjust their hijab secure there are no male bodied people around?

I see a derail ahead......

its amazing how toilet threads attract the 'beeeee kiiiiind/you big meanies/they just wat to pee/its so much harder for them' brigade. Toilet threads are like TRA catnip

can only assume the usual bat signal has gone out

@Emimummy

If I had a colleague at work, who was brave enough to come out as a trans, I would fully embrace them and not get upset over something as silly as them using the same bathroom as me! Just think of what they have been through to get to this point, to then not have support from their own colleague? all over a bathroom? This is likely to be a very difficult time for your colleague and if you can't support them then certainly don't go out of your way to make it more difficult for them.

lovely

that's all the things you'd do. hope it makes you happy

now explain why other women should put up with men using their loos?

I'm assuming I read 'toilet' for 'bathroom' in your post, unless you have really unusual working arrangements?

@Emimummy

It doesn't have to be anything physical

Exactly. Just those magic words. Nothing else. Pervy Pete from Accounts, the one every woman know not to work alone in the office with. One day Pete says 'I'm a woman.' And Pervy Pete now follows women into the Ladies....

So tell me, how do we tell the difference between Pervy Pete and genuinely dysphoric Paul/Paula?

@Emimummy

Do you also “fully embrace” your muslim, sikh and other colleagues whose religion and culture forbids them from using the same facilities as a person with a penis?

And yes, in my experience men using womens bathrooms do leave piss all over the seat. I use a leisure centre in a particularly rough area of a rough city, and mums all send their sons into the ladies rather than the mens (where obvs all the paedos are). There is always pee on the seats.

@sigourneyhoward

But *@Emimummy* Why does "everything" that this TW has gone through supersede the right of women to privacy and dignity. Why does "everything" this TW has gone through supersede the need, as highlighted upthread, for example for hiMuslim women to feel comfortable to adjust their hijab secure there are no male bodied people around?

Maybe I'm missing a huge point, I just cannot see what the issue is if someone feels and openly identifies as a woman, they are trying their best to fully embrace being a woman, but another woman gets to tell them no sorry you can't use our toilets as it makes me feel uncomfortable? it feels a bit like a mean girl situation 'sorry you can't sit with us' what because they weren't born female? if this person truly identifies as female and is fully living their life as female who are we to say they can't have a wee in the bloody toilets? If you know this person is a decent human being why can't compassion be shown?

I've also known young gay friends use female toilets on nights out, one guy in particular was on a hen do with us and came to the toilets with us as there were only male/female toilets, he can't go near male toilets alone after being violently sexually assaulted years back. Before he entered the female toilets he asked permission from the women who were in there already and explained that a traumatic incident left him on a verge on panic attack at going to male toilets, every single woman in there accepted for him to come in without a second thought. I just think compassion and kindness goes a long way.

And to make it clear, I understand the point about someone pretending to identify as a woman and that is pretty sick and i don't know how the heck you would even tackle that. I'm just concentrating on the fact that i have no problem with a work colleague who use to be male who is now fully embracing being female, using the female toilets.

If you know this person is a decent human being why can't compassion be shown?

What if they're a nasty horrid bully? Who decides how decent someone has to be?

Some facilities are separated by SEX. Who do you think you are to decide otherwise for me and all other women?

If I had a colleague at work, who was brave enough to come out as a trans

That's really transphobic. You can't call someone "a trans".

I'm just concentrating on the fact that i have no problem with a work colleague who use to be male who is now fully embracing being female, using the female toilets.
Why do you get to consent on my behalf to something I don't want, @Emimummy?