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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

James Esses Case - Evidence-based therapy

306 replies

RoastChicory · 12/09/2021 11:53

There has been an update from James Esses, who was suspended from his psychotherapy course as he set up a petition to make sure therapists were allowed to explore issues with gender dysphoria patients and not simply affirm the patient’s self-diagnosis.

Shockingly, it appears that the U.K. psychotherapists association put pressure to expel James from the course. They are therefore also now part of the case. If James wins, this would set a very important message to similar associations.

Email copied below

Update on Expelled from my university course for holding gender critical views

Dear Supporters,

Thanks to the overwhelming support I received from my original crowdfunding, my lawyers have now been able to draft and lodge my claim. My lawyers are Akua Reindorf, who wrote the Reindorf review into the treatment by Essex University of its gender critical staff, and Peter Daly of Doyle Clayton Solicitors, who acted for Maya Forstater in the appeal that established gender critical beliefs such as mine as being protected from discrimination.

My claim is in the Employment Tribunal, because both of the Respondents provide workplace qualifications. These are litigated in the Employment Tribunal because of section 53 of the Equality Act 2010.

The First Respondent is Metanoia. The acts of discrimination I am litigating are set out in my original crowdfunding page.

The Second Respondent is UKCP, the United Kingdom Council for Psychotherapy. This is the main registration body for councillors and psychotherapists in the UK. These are not regulated professions, so they don’t have a regulator in the same way that Doctors have the General Medical Council, or solicitors have the Solicitors Regulation Authority. But UKCP is in many ways a quasi-regulator, because registration with the UKCP (or one other counterpart) is required in order to qualify formally as a counsellor or psychotherapist.

It has come to light in Subject Access Request responses that UKCP were far more involved in Metanoia’s actions towards me than I had previously realised. Metanoia were liaising with UKCP, who were putting pressure on Metanoia in how they dealt with me. My claim is therefore also against UKCP, on the basis that its actions instructed, caused or induced Metanoia’s discrimination against me, as well as those actions being discriminatory against me in their own right. As with Metanoia, I am litigating against UKCP on the basis that it is a qualifications body, but also on the basis that it is a Trade Association – both of these are within the Employment Tribunal’s jurisdiction under the Equality Act 2010.

This is, as far as I am aware, the first claim for gender critical belief discrimination brought against a registration body or quasi-regulator like UKCP. This is therefore an important case because it will have relevance for other regulators and other regulated professions.

OP posts:
MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/09/2021 14:01

Great to see this important thread being kept bumped - even if it is via comments like:
Saying men are a risk then donating to a man, honestly couldn't make it up, and on a forum where women come for advice about childcare, meaning they was with a man Confused .
Evidently written by someone who knows nothing about women, lesbian parenting, parenting generally, safeguarding children or feminism. However, so many of the responses from posters are awesome.

Fitt · 13/09/2021 14:19

I was rather amused at the coy "they was with a man". We do mention sex here 😉.

I can now see how they singular slots in easily for the grammaticality challenged.

anaily · 13/09/2021 14:27

Practising using they/them. I like to move with the times, not remain stone age. It's fun and you should try it. I'm not in favour of removing bodily autonomy for girls and women like you are. You can be in favour of restricting rights, I'm not.

Fitt · 13/09/2021 14:30

Are there records of pronouns from the stone age or are you simply prejudiced against people older than you?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/09/2021 14:30

@anaily

Practising using they/them. I like to move with the times, not remain stone age. It's fun and you should try it. I'm not in favour of removing bodily autonomy for girls and women like you are. You can be in favour of restricting rights, I'm not.
Hmmm - over on another thread you're frothing about other people's trees dropping leaves into your garden and how it shouldn't be allowed Grin
MonsignorMirth · 13/09/2021 14:31

@anaily you didn't reply to my question as to why you think two women can't make a baby? You assume that women with children must have had a man to conceive with?
Is that "moving with the times"?

Helleofabore · 13/09/2021 14:37

I'm not in favour of removing bodily autonomy for girls and women like you are. You can be in favour of restricting rights, I'm not.

Please stop misrepresenting James’ position.

Do you understand that ‘body autonomy’ also means that the patient needs to have full disclosure of the risks of the treatment they are about to undertake?

Can you explain how a young teenager can understand they are signing up for the highly likelihood of life limiting and potentially shortening treatment? Please link us up to evidence that they understand this. Can I suggest a great place to start is the ‘evidence’ presented by the Tavistock and GIDs at the Bell vs Tavistock case. You can see exactly what evidence there is that an under 18 year old has 100% the capacity to do this.

We will wait while you check and get back to us.

Helleofabore · 13/09/2021 14:40

It's fun and you should try it.

What about the pressure this puts on trans people to ‘come out’ before they are ready? You seem to be unable to look at the ramifications of what you support.

prudencepuffin · 13/09/2021 15:14

Evidently written by someone who knows nothing about women, lesbian parenting, parenting generally, safeguarding children or feminism.
Quite, and by a person who obviously believes that men will never do the right thing.

Blibbyblobby · 13/09/2021 15:19

@anaily

Practising using they/them. I like to move with the times, not remain stone age. It's fun and you should try it. I'm not in favour of removing bodily autonomy for girls and women like you are. You can be in favour of restricting rights, I'm not.
You are however in favour of removing rights, the right to define boundaries, the right to self define and even the right to their own group name from female people.

You can be in favour of going back to the bad old days when a male's theoretical definition of womanhood had more weight than a female's lived experience of it, but I am not.

RedDogsBeg · 13/09/2021 15:21

@anaily

Practising using they/them. I like to move with the times, not remain stone age. It's fun and you should try it. I'm not in favour of removing bodily autonomy for girls and women like you are. You can be in favour of restricting rights, I'm not.
No.

I'm not in favour of experimenting on children, rendering them infertile, trapping them in pre adolescent bodies, damaging their brains, damaging their skeletons, removing healthy body parts, introducing hormones that work against their biology, condemning them to a life long dependence on drugs but you are.

CuntAmongstThePigeons · 13/09/2021 16:48

Bloody hell, the only people trying to take away others bodily autonomy are the ones advocating for experimental treatment on children.

Treatment that will sterilise them, give them a host of other health issues, limit their sexual function and limit their ability to reach their full IQ.

Seriously do you hear yourself, you really must be a plant as all you're doing is proving how uninformed and thoughtless the people who cheerlead this ideology are.

As we're constantly being told - educate yourself!.

Deliriumoftheendless · 13/09/2021 18:40

😂 women are donating to a fund set up by a man not waving him into a women’s refuge 😂

SpindleWhorl · 13/09/2021 19:20

@anaily

Practising using they/them. I like to move with the times, not remain stone age. It's fun and you should try it. I'm not in favour of removing bodily autonomy for girls and women like you are. You can be in favour of restricting rights, I'm not.
Ah, so you don't hold with the gender-fluid linguistic school of thought that the Finno-Ugric languages were stone age gender-neutral pronoun trailblazers?

How very heteronormatively regressive of you.

MaudTheInvincible · 13/09/2021 19:53

There is nothing more heteronormatively regressive than a TRA. It's their raison d'être.

StrangeLookingParasite · 14/09/2021 01:30

Is anaily 15?

AnyOldPrion · 14/09/2021 06:04

@StrangeLookingParasite

Is anaily 15?
If you read MrsOvertonWindow’s post further up, regarding leaf falling into theys garden related frothing, it seems unlikely they is 15. Though them might identify as 15 for all we know.
Helleofabore · 14/09/2021 07:53

Another link for anaily.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/trans-identified-sex-offender-becomes?token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjozODc5NDI3MywicG9zdF9pZCI6NDEyODIzOTAsIl8iOiJnUUt3NCIsImlhdCI6MTYzMTU5NzQ4MSwiZXhwIjoxNjMxNjAxMDgxLCJpc3MiOiJwdWItNjczMDkiLCJzdWIiOiJwb3N0LXJlYWN0aW9uIn0.DyU2eVh2wFGnpPqYdD8wJ1T2DDsGfSdCUG5sL4mB7Xk

A compilation of males in female prisons…. Something for the ‘birth certificates are dangerous’ file. Some of these have changed name since going into prison. One in particular got Laverne Cox to advocate for them… and Cox couldn’t find their criminal history because they had since changed name so did advocate for them.

And anaily, you never did answer how you felt about the current MMA fighter (ex special forces veteran) who just choked out their female opponent. I am sure the paperwork would have required them to be ‘female’.

JulesRimetStillGleaming · 14/09/2021 10:46

I dressed like a boy, loved being mistaken for a boy, hated anything frilly, or obviously girly from as long as I can remember - definitely before school age.

Grew up thinking I had a male brain (for that read superior) until well into my 20s.

Turns out I'm both autistic and bisexual. Trans? No. Never was and never will be.

Luckily I was growing up in the 80s and 90s. If I grew up this century then I reckon I'd be on a medical pathway which wouldn't solve any of my esteem issues as they were caused by being undiagnosed autistic.

JulesRimetStillGleaming · 14/09/2021 10:50

It makes me fucking angry that the experiences of countless people who go through gender confusion as part of working out who they really are and who aren't trans are being ignored, dismissed, erased. Young people are being misled that life is black and white. Those that are vulnerable to black and white thinking are especially susceptible.

Real harm is being done to real people and THEY MATTER TOO.

anaily · 14/09/2021 14:19

Hmmm - over on another thread you're frothing about other people's trees dropping leaves into your garden and how it shouldn't be allowed

It's annoying cleaning up others mess, I'm sure privileged people on here can't relate to that. Major issues here are which toilets people use.

@MonsignorMirth I'm sure someone will answer your question, unfortunately it won't be me.

We will wait while you check and get back to us.

By a lawyer that has been trying to remove women's rights (abortion) and children's rights (gillick) his entire life, once you check the lawyers history get back to me. You are funding religious people who have dedicated their life to removing rights. That's something i don't want to be associated with, you are free to fund such people.

MMA sports are dangerous by nature and should be outright banned imo. The individuals involved can assess the risk and choose not to fight.

ArabellaScott · 14/09/2021 14:23

anaily, you aren't really making much sense here, m'dear. Well done for trying to respond, but I get the impression you are either very young or have just wandered into various discussions which you have vanishing knowledge, experience or understanding of.

MonsignorMirth · 14/09/2021 14:28

@anaily

Hmmm - over on another thread you're frothing about other people's trees dropping leaves into your garden and how it shouldn't be allowed

It's annoying cleaning up others mess, I'm sure privileged people on here can't relate to that. Major issues here are which toilets people use.

@MonsignorMirth I'm sure someone will answer your question, unfortunately it won't be me.

We will wait while you check and get back to us.

By a lawyer that has been trying to remove women's rights (abortion) and children's rights (gillick) his entire life, once you check the lawyers history get back to me. You are funding religious people who have dedicated their life to removing rights. That's something i don't want to be associated with, you are free to fund such people.

MMA sports are dangerous by nature and should be outright banned imo. The individuals involved can assess the risk and choose not to fight.

Have you confused my posts with someone else's?

You, anailly, said "and on a forum where women come for advice about childcare, meaning they was with a man."

My question is: Why are you saying that a woman who has had a child must mean 'they was with a man'? Why, according to you, can't two women have a child together? Why are you saying that a woman cannot impregnate another?

If you're not able to answer that you are really not qualified to be telling people what to believe about sex and gender - not least because you can't even be clear on what it is you actually believe.

anaily · 14/09/2021 14:38

I'm sure no one here is qualified, hardly any know what non binary or trans is.

yourhairiswinterfire · 14/09/2021 14:43

It's annoying cleaning up others mess, I'm sure privileged people on here can't relate to that. Major issues here are which toilets people use.

Well I'm certainly not privileged. I live in a council flat in one of the roughest cities in the UK, and am very used to having to clean up other people's shit, mainly the drug paraphernalia the prick and his mates that live underneath me leave in the communal hallway (that's after they've kept us awake all night with the shouting, fighting, music), so maybe stop the sneering. You know nothing about the women who post here, or their reasons for doing so.

And toilets aren't the 'major issue' here, which you'd realise if you'd bother listening. Major issues are vulnerable women (you know, unprivileged ones) being locked up in prison with convicted rapists and male sex offenders, victims of rape having nowhere male free to go when they desperately need help, women's refuges, hospital wards, sports, etc. But sure, all we care about is toilets Hmm