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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

James Esses Case - Evidence-based therapy

306 replies

RoastChicory · 12/09/2021 11:53

There has been an update from James Esses, who was suspended from his psychotherapy course as he set up a petition to make sure therapists were allowed to explore issues with gender dysphoria patients and not simply affirm the patient’s self-diagnosis.

Shockingly, it appears that the U.K. psychotherapists association put pressure to expel James from the course. They are therefore also now part of the case. If James wins, this would set a very important message to similar associations.

Email copied below

Update on Expelled from my university course for holding gender critical views

Dear Supporters,

Thanks to the overwhelming support I received from my original crowdfunding, my lawyers have now been able to draft and lodge my claim. My lawyers are Akua Reindorf, who wrote the Reindorf review into the treatment by Essex University of its gender critical staff, and Peter Daly of Doyle Clayton Solicitors, who acted for Maya Forstater in the appeal that established gender critical beliefs such as mine as being protected from discrimination.

My claim is in the Employment Tribunal, because both of the Respondents provide workplace qualifications. These are litigated in the Employment Tribunal because of section 53 of the Equality Act 2010.

The First Respondent is Metanoia. The acts of discrimination I am litigating are set out in my original crowdfunding page.

The Second Respondent is UKCP, the United Kingdom Council for Psychotherapy. This is the main registration body for councillors and psychotherapists in the UK. These are not regulated professions, so they don’t have a regulator in the same way that Doctors have the General Medical Council, or solicitors have the Solicitors Regulation Authority. But UKCP is in many ways a quasi-regulator, because registration with the UKCP (or one other counterpart) is required in order to qualify formally as a counsellor or psychotherapist.

It has come to light in Subject Access Request responses that UKCP were far more involved in Metanoia’s actions towards me than I had previously realised. Metanoia were liaising with UKCP, who were putting pressure on Metanoia in how they dealt with me. My claim is therefore also against UKCP, on the basis that its actions instructed, caused or induced Metanoia’s discrimination against me, as well as those actions being discriminatory against me in their own right. As with Metanoia, I am litigating against UKCP on the basis that it is a qualifications body, but also on the basis that it is a Trade Association – both of these are within the Employment Tribunal’s jurisdiction under the Equality Act 2010.

This is, as far as I am aware, the first claim for gender critical belief discrimination brought against a registration body or quasi-regulator like UKCP. This is therefore an important case because it will have relevance for other regulators and other regulated professions.

OP posts:
334bu · 12/09/2021 13:24

GC philosophy is boys will be boys, girls will be girls. That any other combination is wrong and needs to be corrected. No deviation or anything.
😂😂😂😂😂

pickingdaisies · 12/09/2021 13:24

@anaily I don't think you understand what GC is. Gender Critical. Critical of putting people into gender boxes. The exact opposite of what you claim. HTH.

herewegogc · 12/09/2021 13:25

@anaily

GC philosophy is boys will be boys, girls will be girls. That any other combination is wrong and needs to be corrected. No deviation or anything.
😂😂😂😂
OldCrone · 12/09/2021 13:27

@anaily

The main stigma and mockery comes from GC people telling them to conform to gender stereotypes according to their anatomy. The reality is they are trans.
Can you post some evidence of a 'GC person' (I assume you mean a feminist) saying that people should 'conform to gender stereotypes'?

You seem to have misunderstood what we say on here. Perhaps you should read a bit more before posting.

herewegogc · 12/09/2021 13:27

334bu cross post!

334bu · 12/09/2021 13:28

Anaily obviously hasn't read the" Break it down for me thread which I posted for them" on another thread today.
Maybe this time?

willingtolearn · 12/09/2021 13:31

That's the exact opposite to what being gender critical is. I am critical of the concept of gender.

There are 100 different ways to be a woman - long hair, short hair, masculine, feminine, trousers, skirts, soldier, nurse and there are 100 ways to be a man - long hair, short hair, masculine, feminine, trousers, skirts, soldier nurse.

Gender is a cultural construct that dictates gender 'norms' ie - man = soldier, woman=nurse and is harmful to everyone who does not fit exactly into those norms (pretty much everyone really)

oxalisRed · 12/09/2021 13:32

GC philosophy (aka as biological reality) is that boys are male, girls are female. Any combination of be how you like, wear what you want, do what you like, break sexist stereotypes is correct. Deviate from toxic sexism.

There, that reads better.

OldCrone · 12/09/2021 13:41

For anaily and anyone else who is confused.

James Esses Case - Evidence-based therapy
TabbyStar · 12/09/2021 13:42

GC philosophy is boys will be boys, girls will be girls. That any other combination is wrong and needs to be corrected. No deviation or anything

anaily Who has told you that, because they're doing you a massive disservice?

Lots of us are women with typically "masculine" interests and presentation. We think "feminine" men and "masculine" women are part of the great variation of personalities. No one needs to change their bodies to be able to do what they want.

OldCrone · 12/09/2021 13:50

@anaily

GC philosophy is boys will be boys, girls will be girls. That any other combination is wrong and needs to be corrected. No deviation or anything.
You do seem to have misunderstood. Boys are boys. Girls are girls. Nobody can change sex. What do you mean by 'combination' and 'deviation'? Everyone has a sex which can't be changed (this includes people with DSDs and people who wish they were the opposite sex for any reason).

But none of this says anything about anyone's personality or preferences about anything they want to do or wear. We should all have the freedom to have our own personalities. No personality traits or clothing choices should be forbidden just because of our sex.

anaily · 12/09/2021 13:54

Be whoever you want to be, except trans?

TheMarzipanDildo · 12/09/2021 13:57

@anaily

GC philosophy is boys will be boys, girls will be girls. That any other combination is wrong and needs to be corrected. No deviation or anything.
You are funny. Seriously, we believe the opposite of that.
anaily · 12/09/2021 13:57

"I don't think you understand what GC is. Gender Critical. Critical of putting people into gender boxes. The exact opposite of what you claim. HTH. "

When a girl says they are a boy, you will firmly put them back into their box? (Which is the girl box)

titchy · 12/09/2021 13:59

@anaily

Be whoever you want to be, except trans?
🤷‍♀️ Be trans if you want! GC people have no issues with people wanting to be trans - who has said they have?

All GC people ask for is that in a small number of circumstances (where females are especially vulnerable such as changing rooms, prisons, domestic violence support) biological sex determines which facilities are used.

Read the 'break it down for me thread', you'll find it really helpful.

anaily · 12/09/2021 14:01

You are funny. Seriously, we believe the opposite of that.

You believe boys can be girls and girls can be boys?

Also there are too many people replying to me so forgive me if i haven't replied to you. It seems to be very controversial. To avoid de railing. What evidence is there that trans identities can be fixed? That is the approach James is going for.

OldTurtleNewShell · 12/09/2021 14:02

The aim of the therapy tying to find a cause
Yes
Some trauma perhaps?
If there is some, yes
To then fix that
Identify causes of stress and help them work through it, yes
with the goal of the trans kid no longer identifying as their gender?
No. This is not the goal. The goal is identifying and exploring and working with the patient to find the path that is right for them.
So the child is gender conforming?
Absolutely not. You're just making this up.

SpindleWhorl · 12/09/2021 14:02

I don't think someone on here is posting in good faith.

titchy · 12/09/2021 14:02

When a girl says they are a boy, you will firmly put them back into their box? (Which is the girl box)

No - we say you are a biological female and always will be and need ensure you understand and accept that so for example you access the right healthcare. But we also then add 'being female, even one with stereo-typical male interests, is perfectly valid and we wholeheartedly support those interests and campaign to ensure you can access hobbies, education work etc which support those interests. You don't need a mastectomy to want to be a computer programmer/soldier/HGV driver.'

teawamutu · 12/09/2021 14:03

I think Bunbury had some useful perspectives on derails, didn't she?

Anyway, very interested in this case, it'd be good to explore alternatives to JR.

I may have a little dig later.

OldCrone · 12/09/2021 14:04

What evidence is there that trans identities can be fixed?

What do you mean by 'trans identities'? What do you mean by 'fixed'? Is there any evidence that they can't be 'fixed'?

People can't change sex. Why do you think it is better to alter their bodies than help them to come to terms with the bodies they have?

OldTurtleNewShell · 12/09/2021 14:04

What evidence is there that trans identities can be fixed? That is the approach James is going for.
No, he is not.

titchy · 12/09/2021 14:05

What evidence is there that trans identities can be fixed? That is the approach James is going for.

It isn't at all. If you read his Crowdjustice page (easily searchable with his name for those with carrots) Smile he states For some, gender reassignment will be the appropriate treatment. For others, it will not.

CandyLeBonBon · 12/09/2021 14:05

Where has anyone here talked about needing to fix anyone? Therapy is never about 'fixing' anything. You can't 'fix' trauma. You can only reframe the way you perceive it and the way it affects you.

SpindleWhorl · 12/09/2021 14:06

Yes, if Judicial Review isn't the complete answer, then litigants are left with suing for damages and/or Employment Tribunals.

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