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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

James Esses Case - Evidence-based therapy

306 replies

RoastChicory · 12/09/2021 11:53

There has been an update from James Esses, who was suspended from his psychotherapy course as he set up a petition to make sure therapists were allowed to explore issues with gender dysphoria patients and not simply affirm the patient’s self-diagnosis.

Shockingly, it appears that the U.K. psychotherapists association put pressure to expel James from the course. They are therefore also now part of the case. If James wins, this would set a very important message to similar associations.

Email copied below

Update on Expelled from my university course for holding gender critical views

Dear Supporters,

Thanks to the overwhelming support I received from my original crowdfunding, my lawyers have now been able to draft and lodge my claim. My lawyers are Akua Reindorf, who wrote the Reindorf review into the treatment by Essex University of its gender critical staff, and Peter Daly of Doyle Clayton Solicitors, who acted for Maya Forstater in the appeal that established gender critical beliefs such as mine as being protected from discrimination.

My claim is in the Employment Tribunal, because both of the Respondents provide workplace qualifications. These are litigated in the Employment Tribunal because of section 53 of the Equality Act 2010.

The First Respondent is Metanoia. The acts of discrimination I am litigating are set out in my original crowdfunding page.

The Second Respondent is UKCP, the United Kingdom Council for Psychotherapy. This is the main registration body for councillors and psychotherapists in the UK. These are not regulated professions, so they don’t have a regulator in the same way that Doctors have the General Medical Council, or solicitors have the Solicitors Regulation Authority. But UKCP is in many ways a quasi-regulator, because registration with the UKCP (or one other counterpart) is required in order to qualify formally as a counsellor or psychotherapist.

It has come to light in Subject Access Request responses that UKCP were far more involved in Metanoia’s actions towards me than I had previously realised. Metanoia were liaising with UKCP, who were putting pressure on Metanoia in how they dealt with me. My claim is therefore also against UKCP, on the basis that its actions instructed, caused or induced Metanoia’s discrimination against me, as well as those actions being discriminatory against me in their own right. As with Metanoia, I am litigating against UKCP on the basis that it is a qualifications body, but also on the basis that it is a Trade Association – both of these are within the Employment Tribunal’s jurisdiction under the Equality Act 2010.

This is, as far as I am aware, the first claim for gender critical belief discrimination brought against a registration body or quasi-regulator like UKCP. This is therefore an important case because it will have relevance for other regulators and other regulated professions.

OP posts:
anaily · 13/09/2021 11:33

If you have a question you can PM me, the notification on this doesn't show everything.
As for you donating, that doesn't bother me, you can donate again. Saying men are a risk then donating to a man, honestly couldn't make it up, and on a forum where women come for advice about childcare, meaning they was with a man.

Hattie765 · 13/09/2021 11:48

@anaily

If you have a question you can PM me, the notification on this doesn't show everything. As for you donating, that doesn't bother me, you can donate again. Saying men are a risk then donating to a man, honestly couldn't make it up, and on a forum where women come for advice about childcare, meaning they was with a man.
Have already donated but am going to do so again every time you post on this thread 👍😁
Helleofabore · 13/09/2021 11:49

Saying men are a risk then donating to a man, honestly couldn't make it up, and on a forum where women come for advice about childcare, meaning they was with a man.

From your posts, you seem rather entrenched in some pretty heavy prejudices. Yet are strangely accusing people posting on this board of prejudice in ways that simply and easily dismissed as coming from your own lack of research and lack of critical thinking.

You have clearly fallen into the ‘all or nothing’ argument style of activism. You continue to show your lack the understanding of safeguarding.

Yes, the male sex as a category presents a risk to females and children. This has been shown through statistics (some provided here) and proven via science when it comes to more powerful physical bodies regardless of transition status.

Not all male are like that, but safety decisions are made on a sex class basis when needed.

Just because males as a whole pose risk is not a reason to not support this man. And yes, of course, some of us have male partners.

What a inane thing to say! It truly shows your prejudice that you believe women defending women’s and children’s rights are some kind of man haters. It is truly bizarre thinking and often displayed by someone who gets their information from others without then processing it for validity and truthfulness themselves.

And by the way, males use MN too.

Datun · 13/09/2021 12:01

@anaily

If you have a question you can PM me, the notification on this doesn't show everything. As for you donating, that doesn't bother me, you can donate again. Saying men are a risk then donating to a man, honestly couldn't make it up, and on a forum where women come for advice about childcare, meaning they was with a man.
🤣 it may have escaped your notice, but men are parents too!

Mother's shouldn't be feminists because they've had sex with men? And we shouldn't support trauma therapy for children, if the person is male?

Are you 12?

CuntAmongstThePigeons · 13/09/2021 12:04

Anaily, your logic is utterly bonkers. Do you really not understand class analysis? Men as a CLASS oppress and can be a threat to women. INDIVIDUAL men can not only do neither but actually help women.

Bloody hell, its like conversing with a 5yr old. Back to James, he's doing a superb job of fighting this utter madness. I've donated and as soon as I've been paid I'll donate more.

anaily · 13/09/2021 12:07

Back to James, another post so that means you donate again!

EdgeOfACoin · 13/09/2021 12:09

The counter-arguments to the gender critical point of view was what won me over to the GC position when I was still a lurker. Based on this exchange, I won't have been the only one.

Anyway, payday is coming up. I must remember to dig for James' case.

PoppyMuldoon · 13/09/2021 12:21

Conversion therapy.
I’m old enough to remember the days when it was thought gays and lesbians would ‘grow out of it’ - and that being homosexual was down to abuse/trauma and all that was required was a bit of therapy. Same religious/right wing rubbish. The fact some lesbians here approve of it when they would have been subjected to the same claims 50 years ago is really sad #AreWeTheBaddies?

anaily · 13/09/2021 12:26

"Anaily, your logic is utterly bonkers. Do you really not understand class analysis? Men as a CLASS oppress and can be a threat to women. INDIVIDUAL men can not only do neither but actually help women."

James case has no impact on women's rights, he is suing for being kicked out of a course. It's not a feminist issue.

EdgeOfACoin · 13/09/2021 12:29

@anaily

"Anaily, your logic is utterly bonkers. Do you really not understand class analysis? Men as a CLASS oppress and can be a threat to women. INDIVIDUAL men can not only do neither but actually help women."

James case has no impact on women's rights, he is suing for being kicked out of a course. It's not a feminist issue.

Please could I ask, what sort of issue would you consider to be a feminist issue? What issues affect only women and transwomen (not necessarily all of them, but only them) but not any men or transmen?
Fitt · 13/09/2021 12:32

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Helleofabore · 13/09/2021 12:33

James case has no impact on women's rights, he is suing for being kicked out of a course. It's not a feminist issue.

No impact on women’s rights? Are you now claiming that there are no females transitioning? Are you claiming that those females don’t need the very best health care?

Do you even think before you post?

anaily · 13/09/2021 12:37

James is suing for being kicked out of a course, James does not provide any health care. That's what i read about him, he worked with children until they let him go. I've not read anything about him providing health care to women.

Hattie765 · 13/09/2021 12:38

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Helleofabore · 13/09/2021 12:39

James case has no impact on women's rights, he is suing for being kicked out of a course. It's not a feminist issue

Well, now that we have moved from the disingenuous 'what is so dangerous about birth certificates', let us actually discuss what James is, in fact, fighting for.

Can you please provide studies that show that affirming only therapy is the best standard of care for any trans person?

On that break it down for me thread, there is quite a few studies that show just the opposite if you would care to read them. Studies and papers from those who are working everyday with trans people are saying 'affirming only' is the wrong approach. Even Dr Steensma, whose gender treatment recommendations have been used extensively, has said that for the current cohort of young transitioners affirming only would be wrong.

So, please back up what you are saying because otherwise it will simply be yet another unfounded statement based on misinformation and ill formed concepts.

anaily · 13/09/2021 12:42

No one has been able to answer how birth certificates are dangerous, other than saying men commit sex crimes, which somehow ties with birth certificates.
A man being kicked out of a course is a women's issue?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 13/09/2021 12:48

My, this issue seems to have upset some people Grin

CuntAmongstThePigeons · 13/09/2021 12:54

Poppy I'm so glad you brought that up. You're quite right. Affirmation is very often literally conversion therapy. 85 -90% of trans identified children (gender non conforming as they used to be known) if NOT affirmed and put on off label drugs will grow up to be happy well adjusted gay and lesbian adults.

So it basically is transing the gay away. In the Tavistock report the councillors report that more often that not the children have a history of homophobic bullying from either family or school mates. It's absolutely awful but sadly many parents would rather have a straight trans child with all the health issues that will bring the child than a gay child. It really is the new conversion therapy. That is what you meant right?

Helleofabore · 13/09/2021 13:00

@anaily

James is suing for being kicked out of a course, James does not provide any health care. That's what i read about him, he worked with children until they let him go. I've not read anything about him providing health care to women.
From James' crowdfunder:

'The reason for my expulsion was that I had been trying to safeguard therapy and counselling for vulnerable children with gender dysphoria. I had lodged a public petition, which subsequently got 10,000 signatures and a response from the government, who agreed to many of the safeguards I had been seeking.'

Can you tell us Anailly what it is that you think James is actually advocating for here? Do you understand that 'conversion' therapy is different from therapy that treats underlying mental health issues, yet, some trans activists are insisting that any treatment of those mental health issues should be stopped?

Either way, please understand that you are now discussing trans health care on a forum where some people are parents of trans people who actually understand the unique and very complex needs of their children. Do YOU understand their children's needs? What is your experience here?

And please stop saying that what James is fighting for is not a feminist issue. He is trying to enact change away from a 'one size fits all' model that is creeping into treatment plans. Since you don't seem to want to read through the Break-it-down thread, here is one of the most recent studies from a gender clinic in Australia.

This study is well worth a read.

journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/26344041211010777

Published April 22, 2021
Kasia Kozlowska, Georgia McClure et al

Australian children and adolescents with gender dysphoria: Clinical presentations and challenges experienced by a multidisciplinary team and gender service.

Such an approach does not adequately address a broad range of psychological, family, and social issues and puts patients at risk of adverse future outcomes and clinicians at risk of future legal action.

Did you know that one of the early supporters of affirming treatment, Dr Steensma has also stated recently that with the current cohort of young transitioners, their recommendation is that affirming only is not always appropriate.

We can post many more links here. But maybe, just maybe, you will post some of your own. Maybe you will post just where you are getting your misguided and, frankly, incorrect information from.

And again, this is very much a feminist issue. Because anailly, the 'current cohort' is made up of a huge proportion of young girls and young women.

Who do you think feminists are actually fighting for rights for if it is not the entire female sex class?

Helleofabore · 13/09/2021 13:02

No one has been able to answer how birth certificates are dangerous, other than saying men commit sex crimes, which somehow ties with birth certificates.

I think that if you cannot make the connection with all the links and statistics provided, that is probably an issue you need to address personally.

Helleofabore · 13/09/2021 13:12

Here are some more papers regarding affirming only model issues.

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/freedom-to-think-the-need-for-thorough-assessment-and-treatment-of-gender-dysphoric-children/F4B7F5CAFC0D0BE9FF3C7886BA6E904B/core-reader

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/20502877.2020.1796257

www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/09/71296/?fbclid=IwAR1qhY36S81bxLIL-Gm04MemcwA8R0OBpG5iCy_CrUM6tGttrO98Un-WLTE

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0016885&fbclid=IwAR0_VE6oXCjfUxx9tyL1EXoq3ZfrjOu7Y1FB4Ova2Pw252wkKlCXcHQPVMU

twitter.com/threadreaderapp/status/1336607674344103938?s=21

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6709704/

There is a range of issues covered here.

Including the very 'irreversible' nature of puberty blockers which then falls under the current treatment plans that James Esses and many other therapists and medical doctors are pushing back against.

Maybe you could tell us anailly why you want young girls and young women to undergo medical treatment as part of affirming only that has been proven to have a much higher long term health risk for females over males? Including things like having to have early removal of ovaries causing a huge increase in risk in getting dementia in their 40s or even earlier?

Why do you think that this is NOT a feminist issue? Who has told you this is not a feminist issue?

OldCrone · 13/09/2021 13:40

@anaily

No one has been able to answer how birth certificates are dangerous, other than saying men commit sex crimes, which somehow ties with birth certificates. A man being kicked out of a course is a women's issue?
As you seem to be having difficulty understanding some very basic arguments I will try to explain this clearly to you in simple terms which I hope you will be able to understand.

A male person (a man) normally has a birth certificate which says he is male. So if he commits a crime, he will be sent to a prison for male people (men).

If a man can get his birth certificate changed to say that he is female and then commits a crime, he will be sent to a prison for female people. This has an obvious effect on the women (actual female people) in the prison because they will now be at risk of being raped by a person with a penis (man, male person).

Is that a bit clearer for you?

OldCrone · 13/09/2021 13:47

@CuntAmongstThePigeons

Poppy I'm so glad you brought that up. You're quite right. Affirmation is very often literally conversion therapy. 85 -90% of trans identified children (gender non conforming as they used to be known) if NOT affirmed and put on off label drugs will grow up to be happy well adjusted gay and lesbian adults.

So it basically is transing the gay away. In the Tavistock report the councillors report that more often that not the children have a history of homophobic bullying from either family or school mates. It's absolutely awful but sadly many parents would rather have a straight trans child with all the health issues that will bring the child than a gay child. It really is the new conversion therapy. That is what you meant right?

Times article about the concerns of some clinicians at the Tavistock who think that gay and lesbian children are being wrongly diagnosed as trans.

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.fo/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/it-feels-like-conversion-therapy-for-gay-children-say-clinicians-pvsckdvq2" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">archive.fo/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/it-feels-like-conversion-therapy-for-gay-children-say-clinicians-pvsckdvq2

MonsignorMirth · 13/09/2021 13:51

@anaily

If you have a question you can PM me, the notification on this doesn't show everything. As for you donating, that doesn't bother me, you can donate again. Saying men are a risk then donating to a man, honestly couldn't make it up, and on a forum where women come for advice about childcare, meaning they was with a man.
You don't think two women can make a baby? Why not? Whyever not?
Helleofabore · 13/09/2021 13:53

This might be also useful for those who are interested in the 'conversion' therapy aspect where gay and lesbian teens are being caught in this affirming only therapy aspect.

If I remember correctly, at least one of the clinicians interviewed brought this up as a significant concern that they had witnessed.