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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

James Esses Case - Evidence-based therapy

306 replies

RoastChicory · 12/09/2021 11:53

There has been an update from James Esses, who was suspended from his psychotherapy course as he set up a petition to make sure therapists were allowed to explore issues with gender dysphoria patients and not simply affirm the patient’s self-diagnosis.

Shockingly, it appears that the U.K. psychotherapists association put pressure to expel James from the course. They are therefore also now part of the case. If James wins, this would set a very important message to similar associations.

Email copied below

Update on Expelled from my university course for holding gender critical views

Dear Supporters,

Thanks to the overwhelming support I received from my original crowdfunding, my lawyers have now been able to draft and lodge my claim. My lawyers are Akua Reindorf, who wrote the Reindorf review into the treatment by Essex University of its gender critical staff, and Peter Daly of Doyle Clayton Solicitors, who acted for Maya Forstater in the appeal that established gender critical beliefs such as mine as being protected from discrimination.

My claim is in the Employment Tribunal, because both of the Respondents provide workplace qualifications. These are litigated in the Employment Tribunal because of section 53 of the Equality Act 2010.

The First Respondent is Metanoia. The acts of discrimination I am litigating are set out in my original crowdfunding page.

The Second Respondent is UKCP, the United Kingdom Council for Psychotherapy. This is the main registration body for councillors and psychotherapists in the UK. These are not regulated professions, so they don’t have a regulator in the same way that Doctors have the General Medical Council, or solicitors have the Solicitors Regulation Authority. But UKCP is in many ways a quasi-regulator, because registration with the UKCP (or one other counterpart) is required in order to qualify formally as a counsellor or psychotherapist.

It has come to light in Subject Access Request responses that UKCP were far more involved in Metanoia’s actions towards me than I had previously realised. Metanoia were liaising with UKCP, who were putting pressure on Metanoia in how they dealt with me. My claim is therefore also against UKCP, on the basis that its actions instructed, caused or induced Metanoia’s discrimination against me, as well as those actions being discriminatory against me in their own right. As with Metanoia, I am litigating against UKCP on the basis that it is a qualifications body, but also on the basis that it is a Trade Association – both of these are within the Employment Tribunal’s jurisdiction under the Equality Act 2010.

This is, as far as I am aware, the first claim for gender critical belief discrimination brought against a registration body or quasi-regulator like UKCP. This is therefore an important case because it will have relevance for other regulators and other regulated professions.

OP posts:
anaily · 14/09/2021 17:00

Those in Ireland have already lost that right?

Anyone can ask for any dr, if one can be provided then great, but it's not always possible. I've read stories where patients ask for white drs, if none are available then there isn't much to do. If i don't like the person doing my intimate exam i simply ask for another appointment with a different one that i feel comfortable with. It's never been an issue.

Helleofabore · 14/09/2021 17:11

While raising tens of thousands, that money could be used to help improve lives, yet it's being used to get a guy back into his course, because feminism?

It is not a good look telling women how to spend their money. Or to try to shame them for spending their money supporting people they choose. I am confident in the amount of charity work I personally do in my community. Including directly supporting others.

If you look at the crowdfunders they are very small donations from a huge number of people. Good that you acknowledge that though, we have had posters tell us our causes are funded directly from US interests. Even one poster who went through the financial records of one of the charities to produce …. Nothing.

But crack on.

How is putting money into religious lawyers who have spent their entire life fighting women's rights going to help feminist?

It really seems that activists are very focused on purity. And you seem to think that barristers in the UK have all the freedom in the world to choose all their cases.

No that any of that matters. I would rather have a barrister who had proven they can win a wide range of cases versus one who has been deemed ‘pure’ enough.

Even ones where they disagree with the beliefs of their clients!

Imagine choosing one who fits the ‘pure’ test to discover they are not actually very professional. They might even spend time on a parenting forum admonishing women and may even publish books.

Waitwhat23 · 14/09/2021 17:19

@anaily

Those in Ireland have already lost that right?

Anyone can ask for any dr, if one can be provided then great, but it's not always possible. I've read stories where patients ask for white drs, if none are available then there isn't much to do. If i don't like the person doing my intimate exam i simply ask for another appointment with a different one that i feel comfortable with. It's never been an issue.

You haven't a clue what you are talking about. www.scottishlegal.com/article/opinion-securing-legal-clarity-in-the-forensic-medical-services-bill

Your racism is showing by the way.

Helleofabore · 14/09/2021 17:23

Anyone can ask for any dr, if one can be provided then great, but it's not always possible. I've read stories where patients ask for white drs, if none are available then there isn't much to do. If i don't like the person doing my intimate exam i simply ask for another appointment with a different one that i feel comfortable with. It's never been an issue.

Please stop using racism to prop up your arguments. The situations are absolutely not comparative. Only activists with limited critical thinking skills perpetuate this.

And a woman who wrote to a hospital to request a female to do her mammogram because she was a rape victim recently found out her letter was used as an example of hate and transphobia.

Considering also that some trusts had policies that if women complained that a male was in their female hospital ward, they were to be ‘re-educated’

This is an indication that groups absolutely think that this is an ‘issue’. Considering the outrage that adding the six words that specifically stated female rape victims absolutely had the right to request a female examiner, how much longer will females have this right.

Bouledeneige · 14/09/2021 17:35

anally Gender critical means people are critical of gender stereotypes and in favour of people being free to dress and behave as they wish, to sleep with who they wish, to be gay, straight, bi, whatever. As someone said earlier you just need to read the phrase - especially the critical bit.

Helleofabore · 14/09/2021 17:37

they would be the as they would have also been raped so they need that help and support, domestic violence refuges - they would also be there as they are escaping domestic violence. They deserve the help and support they need when in that situation. Anyone threatening other service users should be removed.

So what about if the counsellor is a male who identifies as a woman and the traumatised rape victim doesn’t feel they have the option to say no but who is retraumatised by the contact with the counsellor.

Is that ok with you anaily?

And if the crisis centre is run by a male who identifies as a woman and has put in place policies that any woman who rejects a male who identifies as a woman as a counsellor should be ‘re-educated’?

That ok too?

The Wii spa, whoever exposed themselves should be charged and dealt with as any other person who exposes themselves.

And anaily can you describe how women and girls know the difference between a male who identifies as a woman ‘exposing’ themselves and or not?

Sophoclesthefox · 14/09/2021 18:13

On the funding topic, I’ll spend my money where I damn well please. If you don’t support James, then don’t pledge any money, it really is very simple.

It’s not about whether a man lost his place on a uni course. Laying aside the issues relating to trans, I don’t want to live, study and work in a country where having the wrong political opinion gets you summarily thrown out of any aspect of public life. Maybe it appeals to your authoritarian instincts, anally, but most people have a sense of natural justice and fair play, and believe in the concept of being able to defend themselves from an accusation and put their side.

What happens when it’s your opinion that’s out of favour? Would you be comfortable with risking being chucked out of uni for your perfectly legitimate opinions?

Helleofabore · 14/09/2021 18:57

Do you hate men anaily? Have you been told that feminists hate men? Have you been told the posters on the feminist boards on MN are man haters?

Because it seems you are under the impression that we should not support a man who has been harmed while trying to support trans people to get the best health care.

You are making very wrong generalisations all through this thread. You seem to really be struggling to honestly answer questions or to provide support of any kind about what you state most confidently. Yet, you are reprimanding women for supporting James.

You have yet to answer why YOU don’t support James? If you want trans people to get mental health support that means when they transition they are better able to live a life that has better mental health prospects, are aren’t you supporting him?

Or have you become entrenched in the activist trope that only affirming treatment ever, is the only treatment plan. Despite clinicians with decades of experience saying this is wrong.

If you believe affirming treatment is the best and only way, show us the evidence to prove that.

SusannaM · 15/09/2021 14:20

Sorry, not meaning to derail, but I can't get past this remark...

It's interesting that it appears to be the first case brought against a regulatory body. I was on the Baroness Nicholson webinar on Friday and she said how she'd come to this fight after a visit from a group of nurses who'd lost their jobs as a result of refusing to do an impossible procedure on a male body. I imagine a cervical smear on a TW or similar scenario. Doing so would have breached the Nursing & Midwifery Council code of practice but they lost their jobs regardless of that.

What?!
Have skimmed the rest of this thread, but can't find further details. Can someone enlighten me?

MaudTheInvincible · 16/09/2021 10:38

@SusannaM

Sorry, not meaning to derail, but I can't get past this remark...

It's interesting that it appears to be the first case brought against a regulatory body. I was on the Baroness Nicholson webinar on Friday and she said how she'd come to this fight after a visit from a group of nurses who'd lost their jobs as a result of refusing to do an impossible procedure on a male body. I imagine a cervical smear on a TW or similar scenario. Doing so would have breached the Nursing & Midwifery Council code of practice but they lost their jobs regardless of that.

What?!
Have skimmed the rest of this thread, but can't find further details. Can someone enlighten me?

I didn't watch last Friday's webinar so can't comment on it, but they're all linked here if you want to see for yourself childrenandwomenfirst.org/public-meetings

anaily · 16/09/2021 23:08

You have yet to answer why YOU don’t support James? If you want trans people to get mental health support that means when they transition they are better able to live a life that has better mental health prospects, are aren’t you supporting him?

The transgender community doesn't support him, his course and governing body doesn't support him, his (ex)job doesn't support him, the only support he is getting is from those who are against transgender inclusion, he is on right wing media. Not a guilt by association, I'll remain neutral until things change and I'll reassess my position then.

Blibbyblobby · 16/09/2021 23:18

the only support he is getting is from those who are against transgender inclusion

Please don't conflate tying the hands of therapists with "trans inclusion".

There are many ways to include and support trans people. Forcing therapists to follow the most divisive and blinkered pillars of misogynistic and regressive genderism over listening to and helping their clients as individuals is not one of them.

Waitwhat23 · 16/09/2021 23:25

Just to be clear, anaily.

Are you saying that advocating a 'watchful waiting' approach is explicitly anti trans inclusion?

Are you saying that the only way to be trans inclusive is to begin medical transition when a child says that they are trans?

Are you saying that there should be no support from therapists in order to understand the reasons why someone wants to transition? Despite the huge spike in girls in particular wanting to transition?

anaily · 16/09/2021 23:34

You may have misunderstood what i said, i said the only support he is getting is from those who are against transgender inclusion, there was no mention of medical pathways. It simply means the only people who support James are also against transgender inclusion.

For medical intervention, if someone wants to get medical help then they should be able to access it, if someone doesn't want it then they shouldn't get it, no one should be forced to do it against their will, aka bodily autonomy.

PickAChew · 16/09/2021 23:39

@anaily

You may have misunderstood what i said, i said the only support he is getting is from those who are against transgender inclusion, there was no mention of medical pathways. It simply means the only people who support James are also against transgender inclusion.

For medical intervention, if someone wants to get medical help then they should be able to access it, if someone doesn't want it then they shouldn't get it, no one should be forced to do it against their will, aka bodily autonomy.

Say I woke up tomorrow and decided I identified as an amputee, would you expect health professionals to agree and lop off my lower left leg "because I wanted it"?
anaily · 16/09/2021 23:44

If you suffer from body integrity identity disorder (BIID) then i suggest you seek help from your gp. You can discuss with them.

PickAChew · 16/09/2021 23:52

@anaily

If you suffer from body integrity identity disorder (BIID) then i suggest you seek help from your gp. You can discuss with them.
You didn't answer my question.
PickAChew · 16/09/2021 23:53

In fact, you didn't read my question.

Blibbyblobby · 16/09/2021 23:54

@anaily

You may have misunderstood what i said, i said the only support he is getting is from those who are against transgender inclusion, there was no mention of medical pathways. It simply means the only people who support James are also against transgender inclusion.

For medical intervention, if someone wants to get medical help then they should be able to access it, if someone doesn't want it then they shouldn't get it, no one should be forced to do it against their will, aka bodily autonomy.

You may have misunderstood what i said, i said the only support he is getting is from those who are against transgender inclusion

I have supported him. I am not against transgender inclusion. So it is not true that "the only support he is getting is from those who are against transgender inclusion"

As I said in my previous post, I do not believe tying the hands of therapists is a valid way to include and support trans people.

anaily · 16/09/2021 23:55

If you want to chop your leg off, you do you, do whatever is best for you.

anaily · 16/09/2021 23:59

Afaik he is not a therapist. Why is the transgender community not rallying behind him?

Waitwhat23 · 17/09/2021 00:15

@anaily

You may have misunderstood what i said, i said the only support he is getting is from those who are against transgender inclusion, there was no mention of medical pathways. It simply means the only people who support James are also against transgender inclusion.

For medical intervention, if someone wants to get medical help then they should be able to access it, if someone doesn't want it then they shouldn't get it, no one should be forced to do it against their will, aka bodily autonomy.

I didn't misunderstand. The tweets reproduced in the newspaper article linked on the first page of this thread make it clear that James Esse was calling for therapeutic support for children instead of immediately going down a medical affirmation route. You have repeatedly said he is 'against trans inclusion' which is not the case - he is advocating an exploration into patients thoughts and feelings - essentially the 'watchful waiting' approach.

By 'medical help' do you mean surgery and drug treatments? In the case of children, should this not be done with the most careful of consideration and safeguarding?

Blibbyblobby · 17/09/2021 00:18

@anaily

Afaik he is not a therapist. Why is the transgender community not rallying behind him?
Firstly, you don't know who is supporting him. Do not mistake the loud voices of extremists and their misinformed "allies" for a coherent community.

Secondly, why would the transgender community in particular be rallying behind him? People who are comfortably trans are not the ones who will suffer if therapists hands are tied.

It's people like those who have posted earlier in the thread, who went through a period of gender questioning but concluded they were not, in fact, trans who are put at risk by this ideological and political insistence that only pre-approved avenues are permitted to be explored.

These people know first hand how wrong this assumption that "anyone who thinks they are trans is definitely trans" is.

So while I would hope (and I have no doubt) that many trans people also do not think fast tracking any children with gender questions into social then medical transition is a good thing, at the end of the day this is not a trans issue.

The only reason it's being presented as a trans issue is because of TRA ideology's absolutist stance that gender identity once expressed is a fixed point that cannot be questioned, only accommodated.

Nellodee · 17/09/2021 06:32

The existence of desistors and detransitioners really undermines the narrative that being trans is exactly like being gay in every way and so it must be suppressed at all costs.
Unfortunately for such thinking, all the evidence shows that with watchful waiting, most children will desist.
I do not understand the thinking that it is better for hundreds of children to unnecessarily spend a lifetime on harmful drugs, potentially losing sexual function and fertility, than it is to even suggest or entertain the idea that being convinced of being trans is not always a permanent state, despite all evidence that this is the case.

EdgeOfACoin · 17/09/2021 06:45

@anaily

If you want to chop your leg off, you do you, do whatever is best for you.
Okay, well that that was a thoughtful, considered response.
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