Transwoman in shared accommodation, take 2

[Shedbuilder]

I've been given permission by Mumsnet mods to start a new thread on this theme: apparently the last one was derailed overnight and has been wiped.

Earlier this year I went on a camping activity weekend organised by a bisexual woman who runs this as a side business. The group is specifically advertised as being for lesbian and bi women and inits early days was promoted only to 'known' lesbians and bi women. Since then it's grown and has advertised in Diva. At the camp I went to (we all took our own tents and camper vans) there were at least two transwomen. Other people tell me that there have been transwomen at previous events and it's clear from social media that there's been a lot of trans interest.

At the camp I attended the transwomen didn't do or say much, but there was quite a lot of posing and staring: so much so that women moved their tents/ vans to another area of the site.

I've now received notification of this group's autumn and winter events which are being held as weekend house parties in large lodges and bunkhouses. All the sleeping accommodation and bathrooms are shared: some shared bedrooms, some dorms.

Someone I know, a stunningly naive lesbian who's been in a LTR till fairly recently and has managed to avoid all the gender woo, has announced she is thinking of booking one of these winter weekends. I can see that one of the 'women' who's already signed up to the same event is actually a transwomen. It's not immediately apparent from their FB page, which includes a partial, filtered, face shot, but I've encountered this individual in a separate context and I know that they are male-bodied. This individual has already posted about looking forward to sharing the hot tub with new women.

I wouldn't want to wake up in a shared room with this person. My friend would be horrified to think that she would sharing a dining table with them on a lesbian and bisexual women's weekend —let alone a bedroom.

I've contacted the organiser and asked her for her policy on accommodating TWs in shared accommodation at an event promoted for lesbian and bisexual women. I've had no response so far and unfortunately I've also lost the legal advice referring to the Equality Act that was posted yesterday.

What do you think? What would you do? I have no intention of revealing the identity of the group here so please don't ask. Having attended one of this woman's events and met her I think she is operating in good faith and is in a difficult position. I'm fully aware of what coming out and saying 'no TWs' would mean to her and her business.

I hope you get the useful information on the EA posted again. Very frustrating about the derailment that sometimes happens on here, especially if it’s deliberate, which it sometimes seems to be.

My inclination, for what it’s worth, would be to let your friend know, so she can make her own decisions, based on the full information.

I’d also let the organiser know about your experience, in particular if it has put you off using her company again. I would explain under what circumstances (if any) you would be happy to have a “transwoman” (not happy using that term myself, but might if I was in such as discussion and wanted to get my point across in a way that would help other women) included and which circumstances would make you uncomfortable. I wouldn’t in any way criticize her policy, but would only present it as something that affected you negatively. If she is creating situations that would put a lot of women off, but nobody tells her what they are, her business will likely fail in the long term anyway, as I imagine the potential pool of customers is quite limited, so letting her know is the right thing to do, I think.

@MNHQ

Can you provide the info from the thread to the OP?

Surely she should stop advertising the holidays for lesbian and bi women? It is an anyone welcome holiday and should be advertised as such. I would never choose it personally, but everyone should be aware of the reality before they book. It’s only fair. Lesbians are a protected category ( sexual orientation) under the Equality Act and we should be able to meet up without MBP being there.

I wouldn’t go and I would let the organiser know why. Women are entitled to single sex spaces and groups.

I think at the very least let your friend know so she can potentially cancel / get a refund in time.

I’d also be inclined to let the business owner know too. How is she going to shape her business if she doesn’t know what works (and doesn’t) for her intended clients?

If you know people have booked or are thinking of booking then privately let them know about trans women attendance. Then it's up to them whether they book it or not & they may spread the news to others. The organisers might act if they notice a drop in bookings. The easiest thing to do is to advertise it as a fully inclusive event, drop the lesbians/Bi only & the bookings from the interested parties might drop.

@PaterPower

I think at the very least let your friend know so she can potentially cancel / get a refund in time.

I’d also be inclined to let the business owner know too. How is she going to shape her business if she doesn’t know what works (and doesn’t) for her intended clients?

I've already contacted the organiser with my concerns and suggested she makes it clear that these events are not actually female-only. I haven't heard from her. I'm sure she'll hate the fact I've brought it up. Anyone who's ever tried to organise a women-only event will understand the hell these things are.

I think where she's gone wrong is by marketing on sites known to be places where transwomen gather. I had no idea she'd advertised in Diva. Diva is a hotbed of trans and woke liberal feminists. I thought she was just using personal networking to publicise it: known lesbians and bi women asked to circulate among their known lesbian and bi contacts privately.

I don't get the issue? It's an all women event and you're worried about women being there? I'm just glad men aren't invited to share the space with women.

Trans women are by definition male otherwise what are they transitioning from?

@Antinerak

I don't get the issue? It's an all women event and you're worried about women being there? I'm just glad men aren't invited to share the space with women.

Women don't have penises.

Sorry I don't have any useful advice other than to offer sympathies for a shit situation.

If the organisers are creating what are essentially mixed sex, 'genderqueer' events then they should at least be upfront about this. Lying by omission is obviously going to cause issues and women have a right to know exactly what they are signing up for.

I don't think it's possible right now to hold lesbian women only events other than underground secret organising which of course ironically is what women had to do decades ago before gay people had rights.

Ignore any blatant goading this time or this thread will go the same way.

I think where she's gone wrong is by marketing on sites known to be places where transwomen gather. I had no idea she'd advertised in Diva.

I’m guessing she was hoping to expand, but perhaps didn’t realise the pitfalls. Alternatively, she might think it’s the right thing to do. I suspect she might find, if her clientele are mostly older women, that she will find it’s not a popular move.

I can’t see that there is much more you can do now. It’s unlikely, but if she does get back to you, perhaps you could suggest she advertises in other places? I’m not an expert, but I think Lesbian and Gay News and After Ellen are both aimed specifically at homosexual people.

If accommodation has been advertised as for women, it should be single sex. Here is the relevant section on accommodation from the Equality Act;

''997.This paragraph provides an exception to the general prohibition of sex and gender reassignment discrimination. It allows communal accommodation to be restricted to one sex only, as long as the accommodation is managed as fairly as possible for both men and women.''
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/40/3

If it were up to me I would ask her to clarify the situation, because she has no right to put women in this position. She needs to be honest and up front about what she is selling, and its her responsibility to know and abide by the law.

Thank you, TheInebriati, that was what you posted yesterday and I lost when the thread was cancelled. I've cut and pasted this time.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Ignore any blatant goading this time or this thread will go the same way.

Agreed

If there is a FB page or similar for the event/company and if you're feeling brave enough, I would be tempted to put a message on there, asking whether this event will be open to TW and if so, what the arrangements will be for sleeping/bathroom accommodation and whether it will be separated by sex or mixed (or you may need to put "biological" or "natal" sex though to make sure it gets a proper answer and not just one based on "gender"...), and perhaps mentioning that some people were made uncomfortable at previous events as they hadn't realised there would be male people there. You could also ask whether women booking onto the event will be made aware that there will be male-born people attending/that they may be sharing sleeping/bathroom accommodation with them? It might get deleted immediately, but at least some people might see it first.

I would also definitely tell your friend/anyone else you know who is thinking of going about this.

I just checked my messages and the organiser has responded 'Transwomen are legally women, surely? How am I to tell?'

So it looks as if this is going to be a quite a long, drawn-out process in which I, a lesbian, have to take a bisexual woman to task. And this is the genius of transgender ideology, isn't it? It sets women against women and minorities against other minorities and the only people who benefit are men.

Honestly, if you tell your friend, you’ve done as much as you can.

The organiser was being very naive.

You could let her know that they are not legally women unless they have a GRC. And point to the legislation that clearly says even then there are exceptions, and ask if her public liability insurers are aware that the accommodation is mixed sense - because there will be someone suing an organisation for not having appropriate measure in place to keep members safe at some point and you wouldn't want it to be her...

Maybe also suggest that if she wants repeat business this is probably not the right way to organise things...

Due to this thread, I've had a look at some organisations offering lesbian holidays. 1 of them specifically refers to the Equality Act in the context of who the holiday is available to. Which I take to mean that it is open to a male bodied person who has a gender recognition certificate, but that's it. Maybe your friend could do this.

there will be someone suing an organisation for not having appropriate measure in place to keep members safe at some point
Definitely but someone suing or doxxing or sending in the flying twitter monkeys if men are excluded is more likely.

The organiser clearly doesn't mind but her customers might. But by that point she's got their money, hasn't she?

Awful situation and how very sad that lesbians and bi women are losing nice events and a safe space. I suspect the shared bedrooms will make this a train wreck and the organisers will be inundated with complaints. I'd certainly warn your friend privately. I would also avoid future events by this company. I suspect if you want future nice lesbian only events you need to organise them yourself. It's wrong, I hope it's temporary, it's what the TWAW brigade have pushed for

@Shedbuilder

I just checked my messages and the organiser has responded 'Transwomen are legally women, surely? How am I to tell?'

So it looks as if this is going to be a quite a long, drawn-out process in which I, a lesbian, have to take a bisexual woman to task. And this is the genius of transgender ideology, isn't it? It sets women against women and minorities against other minorities and the only people who benefit are men.

You were helpful and raised the matter in a way that would spare the organiser and some customers any later disagreements.

You did what you could. It would be useful if the organiser detailed that the women and lesbians encompass a range of gender identities rather than the conventional sex categories. However, if the organiser doesn't wish to acknowledge the complexities, it does not confer an obligation on you to do this thankless task.

Have you alerted your friend to this covert state of play? If so, that's probably sufficient at this point.