Transwoman in shared accommodation, take 2

[Shedbuilder]

I've been given permission by Mumsnet mods to start a new thread on this theme: apparently the last one was derailed overnight and has been wiped.

Earlier this year I went on a camping activity weekend organised by a bisexual woman who runs this as a side business. The group is specifically advertised as being for lesbian and bi women and inits early days was promoted only to 'known' lesbians and bi women. Since then it's grown and has advertised in Diva. At the camp I went to (we all took our own tents and camper vans) there were at least two transwomen. Other people tell me that there have been transwomen at previous events and it's clear from social media that there's been a lot of trans interest.

At the camp I attended the transwomen didn't do or say much, but there was quite a lot of posing and staring: so much so that women moved their tents/ vans to another area of the site.

I've now received notification of this group's autumn and winter events which are being held as weekend house parties in large lodges and bunkhouses. All the sleeping accommodation and bathrooms are shared: some shared bedrooms, some dorms.

Someone I know, a stunningly naive lesbian who's been in a LTR till fairly recently and has managed to avoid all the gender woo, has announced she is thinking of booking one of these winter weekends. I can see that one of the 'women' who's already signed up to the same event is actually a transwomen. It's not immediately apparent from their FB page, which includes a partial, filtered, face shot, but I've encountered this individual in a separate context and I know that they are male-bodied. This individual has already posted about looking forward to sharing the hot tub with new women.

I wouldn't want to wake up in a shared room with this person. My friend would be horrified to think that she would sharing a dining table with them on a lesbian and bisexual women's weekend —let alone a bedroom.

I've contacted the organiser and asked her for her policy on accommodating TWs in shared accommodation at an event promoted for lesbian and bisexual women. I've had no response so far and unfortunately I've also lost the legal advice referring to the Equality Act that was posted yesterday.

What do you think? What would you do? I have no intention of revealing the identity of the group here so please don't ask. Having attended one of this woman's events and met her I think she is operating in good faith and is in a difficult position. I'm fully aware of what coming out and saying 'no TWs' would mean to her and her business.

Re women-only events ceasing: remember MichFest.

I gather that the legal case of an allegedly violent abusive transwoman who was at the centre of destroying MichFest is still ongoing.

The alleged triple murderer of two lesbians and their teenage son? Yes I think it is still ongoing.

www.karadansky.com/state-v-dana-rivers-updates

Yes that “alleged” crime by an “alleged” woman.

A man who obtains a GRC is legally female but not for all purposes, and can legally be excluded from single sex services intended for women.
The Equality Act defines 'sexual orientation' as sex based, not gender based. An event can be single sex, if it is for lesbians. Lesbians are defined as women who are same sex attracted.

Your friend needs to change the wording of her event, to let participants know the sleeping accommodation and other facilities may be mixed sex.
It might be easier for the women affected to challenge her via Trading Standards, since they are paying customers and she is misrepresenting what she is offering.

Services generally provided only for persons who share a protected characteristic
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/3/part/7/crossheading/services-generally-provided-only-for-persons-who-share-a-protected-characteristic

This section defines the protected characteristic of sexual orientation
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/2/1/9

Single-sex services
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/3/part/7/crossheading/singlesex-services

I'm so pleased for you that you've managed to have this thread reinstated which has raised a really important issue here.

The only way for actual inclusion to work going forward is for all women's resources and spaces to be clearly designated and labelled as mixed sex/W&TW or single sex/female only, ensuring that there is equal provision for each group. Since each group will exclude some women, there will have to be two separate groups provided for and respected.

Which is fine, so long as the female only group receives the same tolerance and respect as female people are being required to give the mixed sex W&TW resources, groups etc.

@Artichokeleaves

The only way for actual inclusion to work going forward is for all women's resources and spaces to be clearly designated and labelled as mixed sex/W&TW or single sex/female only, ensuring that there is equal provision for each group. Since each group will exclude some women, there will have to be two separate groups provided for and respected.

Which is fine, so long as the female only group receives the same tolerance and respect as female people are being required to give the mixed sex W&TW resources, groups etc.

I don't see where non-binaries would allocate themselves.

I can see how this would put an end to single-sex events for women. I expect it would have less impact on single-sex events for men (I may be wrong).

@AnyOldPrion

The organiser is right - how can she tell? She is not in a position to know the genitalia of the people attending, unless she demands you all strip naked?

With rare exceptions, it’s obvious on sight, fully clothed, even from a distance.

But this thread is a perfect demonstration of how much it messes up so many of our societal conventions when men who claim they are women insist they are women and must be able to access all women’s spaces and events.

The organiser can no longer tell, when people apply to attend, whether they are male or female. Even asking for a picture of their passport or other document is not reliable.

So if she does choose, out of consideration for her female clients, to segregate sleeping accommodation by sex, it means that she will have to meet all new clients before she can allocate rooms. If some rooms are shared, she will have to make sure there’s some flexibility built in. Unless she waits until all guests have arrived, she won’t be sure how to allocate. And knowing how touchy some clients might be about having their sex referred to, however obliquely, she will likely not want to make it obvious by shifting people around, once the allocation is done.

She can choose not to do this, of course, but I think she would lose clients rapidly and word would go round.

The other alternative, which is to make it clear on booking that single sex exemptions are being applied, puts her at risk from transactivists who often target single sex spaces, even in such obviously reasonable organisations such as rape crisis and DV shelters.

The end result, of course, is that many organisers will stop organising such trips altogether. Others will continue, but shared accommodation, unless organised by those booking in as a group, will not be feasible and everyone will have the increased expense of single rooms.

And all this, because rather than accepting that they are male, but want to present as female, men are now demonstrating their power to enter wherever they like and overrule all the societal norms that have been developed to protect women.

Incredible that a genuinely disadvantaged minority, like lesbian women, are having so much taken from them, with the backing of governments, society and the law.

Quoting AnyOldPrion because she sums it up perfectly and I think it bears repeating.

The crux of the issue is, as others have noted, the way the event is advertised. I'm writing to her citing the legal situation (that it's perfectly legal in the case of shared accommodation to exclude on the basis of sex) and I'm also offering alternative ways of rephrasing the 'lesbian and bi women' line to send a clear signal to everyone that this event may include male-bodied people.

I can't remember any T&Cs when I signed up and paid for my ticket for the activity camp but I've also suggested she had a T&Cs form online that people have to tick, stating clearly that women accept that they may end up sharing a room with a male-bodied person. Of course she won't do that because it'll put a great many women off.

There's a vast difference between a camp, where if someone feels uncomfortable they can move to another pitch or even, relatively cheaply, find another campsite. But you can't do that easily or cheaply for a residential weekend and some women travel hundreds of miles to attend them.

I ask my perennial question. Do the decent men we all know, including the decent, respectful TW, insinuate their way into women's private spaces and and groups? No.

@Antinerak

I don't get the issue? It's an all women event and you're worried about women being there? I'm just glad men aren't invited to share the space with women.

No, she's worried about men being there. They are the ones with the penises.

I don't see where non-binaries would allocate themselves.

Well if they're choosing to attend a women's event, they are either NB male but wishing to come to a women's event and there's the W/TW mixed sex event, or they're NB female and there's the female only event.

It is merely asking that everyone's needs be met without anyone being excluded, and that equal respect is extended to the inclusion of and provision for female people who need female only provision as it is to those with wide ranging gender identities of both sexes.

WTF!!! Single sex isn't split down the lines of attraction. Its split because men and women have different biological needs, bodies and yes because men are more likely to be predatory.

That's so fucking homophobic, I'm surprised it came from a lesbian!!!

I've shared rooms, beds, sometimes 3 in a bed with numerous lesbian friends. I wouldn't do that with male friends. Regardless of how nice they are, how long we've been friends etc, even if they're gay. Jeezus.

Like OP I don’t want to share details (to avoid pile on of organisations) but when I questioned a couple of places re inaccurate monitoring forms/advertising I was told that funders are requiring use of their monitoring forms/wording.

Even though at best a woman will question, be reassured, and the org will tell applicants its female only.

Or (as has also happened) the org sticks to funders wording in action and allows in males so females questioning are excluded, self-exclude, or even worse turn up in expectation of female only and then have to either leave or manage as best they can in fear (of both being labelled a bigot and of the male in question)

Fear isn’t a great accompaniment to learning and certainly isn’t conducive to taking part in what’s meant to be a ‘fun’ activity.

Sacreblue, you're right. There was something about one of the TWs who attended the camp that unsettled me and others. You know when a man comes up and stands beside you at a bus stop or sits near you in a cafe and you just know, from body language and those little attention-seeking behaviours that you're going to be coerced into an unwanted conversation? That was how I felt about that individual.

I timed my showers to coincide with periods when that person was off site or involved in something else. I did not want to end up in the confined space of the shower block or the loos with him. It's about knowing you're in the presence of someone who wants your attention. And it was the attention of those of us who didn't want to give him any attention that he wanted most. I can't say it was exactly fear, but there was a constant tension and wariness that marred what was otherwise a good weekend.

Well if they're choosing to attend a women's event, they are either NB male but wishing to come to a women's event and there's the W/TW mixed sex event, or they're NB female and there's the female only event.

I would be delighted if people were to accept the sex category (I think I mentioned this upthread). I am aware that some reject sex as a binary.

The only NB people that I know at present are all very young. I know that some reject sex and embrace agender and others reject binaries. I have no idea how they would choose to book for comparable events.

I was told that funders are requiring use of their monitoring forms/wording.

This doesn't surprise me. However, I suppose this might be generational and young people might shift the demographic of service use in some areas and that would be attractive to some funders.

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

Well if they're choosing to attend a women's event, they are either NB male but wishing to come to a women's event and there's the W/TW mixed sex event, or they're NB female and there's the female only event.

I would be delighted if people were to accept the sex category (I think I mentioned this upthread). I am aware that some reject sex as a binary.

The only NB people that I know at present are all very young. I know that some reject sex and embrace agender and others reject binaries. I have no idea how they would choose to book for comparable events.

I was told that funders are requiring use of their monitoring forms/wording.

This doesn't surprise me. However, I suppose this might be generational and young people might shift the demographic of service use in some areas and that would be attractive to some funders.

I agree.

But in order to not exclude some female people from all women's events, TW and NB people are going to have to extend the same respect towards female only provisions that are expected from female people towards mixed sex women's provisions.

Not everything female can be turned mixed sex to be 'inclusive' as that merely includes male people and those who choose not to recognise sex as binary - who as a group hold a particular political belief about sex - while excluding female people who for various protected characteristics including different political beliefs.

It would require, as I say, mutual live and let live, and accepting not all provisions are for everyone, but everyone will be able to access something. I don't see any other way of doing it that doesn't just require a large number of female people giving up on having any access at all to women's provisions.

And anyone who cares about equality, inclusion, intersectionality, diversity and kindness obviously won't see this as an acceptable future for women's services and provisions.

Not sure that is as clear as I wanted it:

in essence, those who do not believe in binary sex are going to need to respect that some people do, and need services accordingly.

Two way live and let live.

@Shedbuilder

Sacreblue, you're right. There was something about one of the TWs who attended the camp that unsettled me and others. You know when a man comes up and stands beside you at a bus stop or sits near you in a cafe and you just know, from body language and those little attention-seeking behaviours that you're going to be coerced into an unwanted conversation? That was how I felt about that individual.

I timed my showers to coincide with periods when that person was off site or involved in something else. I did not want to end up in the confined space of the shower block or the loos with him. It's about knowing you're in the presence of someone who wants your attention. And it was the attention of those of us who didn't want to give him any attention that he wanted most. I can't say it was exactly fear, but there was a constant tension and wariness that marred what was otherwise a good weekend.

I’m in a Facebook group for women with campervans, and and the one and only meet up I went along to, I had the exact same experience as you.

They were treated like royalty by a few of the women present, but I feel like the person made a beeline for those of us who weren’t interested in validating them.

I found myself selecting different activities than the ones I’d originally chosen, timing my showers when I knew they weren’t around, and only going to the loo with other women, never alone.

@viques

Can we not be honest, possession of a GRC doesn’t do diddly shit to solve this issue.

Quite.

in essence, those who do not believe in binary sex are going to need to respect that some people do, and need services accordingly.

99% of the population know that sex is real, immutable and binary. Why even suggest that we try to accommodate the changeable beliefs of a tiny number of people? They can believe what they want, but the mere fact they believe it doesn't mean that the rest of us have to roll over to suit them!

Accommodation is often divided along sex lines out of a recognition that the majority of people are heterosexual

Nonsense. Accommodation is divided along sex lines out of a recognition that the overwhelming majority of assaults upon women are carried out by men

This!

@AnyOldPrion

The organiser is right - how can she tell? She is not in a position to know the genitalia of the people attending, unless she demands you all strip naked?

With rare exceptions, it’s obvious on sight, fully clothed, even from a distance.

But this thread is a perfect demonstration of how much it messes up so many of our societal conventions when men who claim they are women insist they are women and must be able to access all women’s spaces and events.

The organiser can no longer tell, when people apply to attend, whether they are male or female. Even asking for a picture of their passport or other document is not reliable.

So if she does choose, out of consideration for her female clients, to segregate sleeping accommodation by sex, it means that she will have to meet all new clients before she can allocate rooms. If some rooms are shared, she will have to make sure there’s some flexibility built in. Unless she waits until all guests have arrived, she won’t be sure how to allocate. And knowing how touchy some clients might be about having their sex referred to, however obliquely, she will likely not want to make it obvious by shifting people around, once the allocation is done.

She can choose not to do this, of course, but I think she would lose clients rapidly and word would go round.

The other alternative, which is to make it clear on booking that single sex exemptions are being applied, puts her at risk from transactivists who often target single sex spaces, even in such obviously reasonable organisations such as rape crisis and DV shelters.

The end result, of course, is that many organisers will stop organising such trips altogether. Others will continue, but shared accommodation, unless organised by those booking in as a group, will not be feasible and everyone will have the increased expense of single rooms.

And all this, because rather than accepting that they are male, but want to present as female, men are now demonstrating their power to enter wherever they like and overrule all the societal norms that have been developed to protect women.

Incredible that a genuinely disadvantaged minority, like lesbian women, are having so much taken from them, with the backing of governments, society and the law.

I agree with absolutely all of this.

I'm sick of the lies and pretence that women are being forced into. We are meant to pretend that all males who identify as women are nice and genuine and don't at all have motivations of power or control or any sexual motivations.

Women only spaces were a space to get rid of all that shit and now we are not only told to accept it but to PRETEND IT IS NOT HAPPENING.

TooWicked, I'm glad I'm not the only person to have had a similar experience. And I'm glad you felt the same way about the showers and loos because I started wondering if I was being paranoid. Imagine that situation if you were sharing a dorm and a bathroom with that person and then having to sit opposite them at meals and spend a cosy evening in front of the log burner with them — and no easy escape. It's not just about someone not being what they purport to be, though I think there's an element of that that puts women on the alert, it's something coercive about the behaviour.

I find the FB comment by the Trans-woman about "looking forward to sharing the hot tub with new women" particularly troubling. Why single out that aspect of the weekend?

If I were a Trans-person (I'm not), my anticipation would be based on spending time generally with liberal minded people (of any gender) who were likely to share my viewpoints and are friendly kindred spirits. I don't think I'd immediately hone in on a single aspect that involved nakedness. But maybe that's just me.

@Shedbuilder

in essence, those who do not believe in binary sex are going to need to respect that some people do, and need services accordingly.

99% of the population know that sex is real, immutable and binary. Why even suggest that we try to accommodate the changeable beliefs of a tiny number of people? They can believe what they want, but the mere fact they believe it doesn't mean that the rest of us have to roll over to suit them!

Because the only way out of this utterly fucked up mess of law and equality is to split services into those who can and wish to have mixed sex women's services and those who need single sex.

If it's a case of either or, and one side has to lose and go without provision, then it probably will be female people who lose, as female people are already, radically losing because in mixed sex situations males always have louder voices, more power, more influence. It's why mixed sex does not work for female people. Plus, it is very difficult to justify why, if female people are prepared to tolerate some mixed sex provision for women if female only provision is provided too, and respected - that those wishing mixed sex women's provision will not extend that respect and tolerance to others as well as require it. Politically that's not a great look, it's not a sustainable position.

And frankly I'd rather support everyone having needs met than see a large number of female people end up without anything at all, not even allowed to state their problem. Because that's where we are right now.

And I'm glad you felt the same way about the showers and loos because I started wondering if I was being paranoid

And that's the problem with this movement. Its demanding that women ignore their instincts and discomfort. And that puts women at risk. As well as giving them the measure that their role in life is to centre others and never themselves.