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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transwoman in shared accommodation, take 2

194 replies

Shedbuilder · 12/09/2021 08:34

I've been given permission by Mumsnet mods to start a new thread on this theme: apparently the last one was derailed overnight and has been wiped.

Earlier this year I went on a camping activity weekend organised by a bisexual woman who runs this as a side business. The group is specifically advertised as being for lesbian and bi women and inits early days was promoted only to 'known' lesbians and bi women. Since then it's grown and has advertised in Diva. At the camp I went to (we all took our own tents and camper vans) there were at least two transwomen. Other people tell me that there have been transwomen at previous events and it's clear from social media that there's been a lot of trans interest.

At the camp I attended the transwomen didn't do or say much, but there was quite a lot of posing and staring: so much so that women moved their tents/ vans to another area of the site.

I've now received notification of this group's autumn and winter events which are being held as weekend house parties in large lodges and bunkhouses. All the sleeping accommodation and bathrooms are shared: some shared bedrooms, some dorms.

Someone I know, a stunningly naive lesbian who's been in a LTR till fairly recently and has managed to avoid all the gender woo, has announced she is thinking of booking one of these winter weekends. I can see that one of the 'women' who's already signed up to the same event is actually a transwomen. It's not immediately apparent from their FB page, which includes a partial, filtered, face shot, but I've encountered this individual in a separate context and I know that they are male-bodied. This individual has already posted about looking forward to sharing the hot tub with new women.

I wouldn't want to wake up in a shared room with this person. My friend would be horrified to think that she would sharing a dining table with them on a lesbian and bisexual women's weekend —let alone a bedroom.

I've contacted the organiser and asked her for her policy on accommodating TWs in shared accommodation at an event promoted for lesbian and bisexual women. I've had no response so far and unfortunately I've also lost the legal advice referring to the Equality Act that was posted yesterday.

What do you think? What would you do? I have no intention of revealing the identity of the group here so please don't ask. Having attended one of this woman's events and met her I think she is operating in good faith and is in a difficult position. I'm fully aware of what coming out and saying 'no TWs' would mean to her and her business.

OP posts:
MoltenLasagne · 12/09/2021 17:57

Can you respond to say that many women will not appreciate being in single-gender, mixed-sex accommodation and they should be made aware of this up front.

If women are happy to share sleeping and showering spaces with transwomen then that's great but no-one should be put in the position of turning up expecting a female friendly space and being blindsided by this.

MrsColon · 12/09/2021 18:00

@Shedbuilder

I just checked my messages and the organiser has responded 'Transwomen are legally women, surely? How am I to tell?'

So it looks as if this is going to be a quite a long, drawn-out process in which I, a lesbian, have to take a bisexual woman to task. And this is the genius of transgender ideology, isn't it? It sets women against women and minorities against other minorities and the only people who benefit are men.

If they don't have a GRC then no, they are legally men. Most transwomen are legally men.
Artichokeleaves · 12/09/2021 18:38

At the least, the organiser needs to be clear and specific in all information shared that this will be a mixed sex lesbian/bisexual event. (And yes, I know, but it needs to be spelled out.)

The organiser also needs to be aware that by including male people in this women's event, they will be excluding female people who otherwise would have been able to attend, many of whom will be protected under the Equality Act too.

In an ideal world, perhaps consider two separate events, one of which is mixed sex and one of which is single sex, including the exemptions. There will be some female people able to attend both events, however there will be a group of female people who can attend only one, and there will be a group of TW who can attend only one. To ask both groups to respect the other's event and to permit the meeting of everyone's needs seems a perfectly reasonable request.

JellySlice · 12/09/2021 19:04

*I just checked my messages and the organiser has responded 'Transwomen are legally women, surely? How am I to tell?'
*
I think the answer to this is "Not usually. And even if they are, there are situations where you are required to recognise that they are male. Such as with regard to communal accommodation, and other situations which it is legal to give females privacy from males."

Shedbuilder · 12/09/2021 19:08

Thank you, JellySlice.That's considerably more concise than the answer I've drafted but haven't yet sent!

OP posts:
JellySlice · 12/09/2021 19:12

TBH I'm not sure whether she's required or permitted. But it's certainly required for most of her female clientele.

Sunndown · 12/09/2021 20:52

She will start getting complaints and losing customers very soon, I imagine. It may be that accepting trans males will make the business unviable. Time will tell.

NecessaryScene · 12/09/2021 21:07

I'm still unclear on the legality of excluding men if it's not single sex. Single sex things are permitted, but can you turn men away if it's not single sex? Admission of transwomen seems to blow away the use of the single sex exemption, afaict. A space is either mixed sex or single sex, you don't get to selectively sex discriminate only against some males. (Similarly for any claim to be for non heterosexuals, assuming they're heterosexual transwomen).

suggestionsplease1 · 12/09/2021 21:09

The organiser is right - how can she tell? She is not in a position to know the genitalia of the people attending, unless she demands you all strip naked?

Accommodation is often divided along sex lines out of a recognition that the majority of people are heterosexual - in this instance there will be a load of lesbian and bisexual people attending and sharing rooms who experience same-sex attraction, so the principles that usually determine separation of accommodation are out of the window anyway.

viques · 12/09/2021 21:16

Can we not be honest, possession of a GRC doesn’t do diddly shit to solve this issue.

titchy · 12/09/2021 21:19

Accommodation is often divided along sex lines out of a recognition that the majority of people are heterosexua

Accommodation isn't single sex to avoid sexual attraction happening FFS Angry

TurquoiseBaubles · 12/09/2021 21:23

"Accommodation is often divided along sex lines out of a recognition that the majority of people are heterosexual" - that's complete nonsense.

Accommodation is divided along sex lines for reasons of safety (primarily) and for privacy and dignity.

I, as a heterosexual woman, have never even considered that staying in a room with, or changing in front of, women who might be lesbians or bisexual would be in any an issue. I don't give a shit about that and I'm surprised to see such a homophobic suggestion on a thread about activities for lesbians and bysexual women Hmm.

I don't want to change with or sleep in the same room as men I don't know, for reasons that are obvious to pretty much every woman and girl I know. Primarily because they are male, secondly because some of them (NAMALT, yeah, yeah) make me feel uncomfortable, and some others downright scare me.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 12/09/2021 21:30

I don't want to change with or sleep in the same room as men I don't know, for reasons that are obvious to pretty much every woman and girl I know. Primarily because they are male, secondly because some of them (NAMALT, yeah, yeah) make me feel uncomfortable, and some others downright scare me.

Yes. Given the way implied consent is handled in the legal system at present, I wouldn't fancy my chances in the stunningly small risk that something went awry.

TheWeeDonkey · 12/09/2021 21:33

I think the organiser needs to stop advertising this as a single sex event.

Adult women are well capable of making a decision if they want to attend such an event, but its a basic courtesy to allow them to make that decision knowing the full facts.

suggestionsplease1 · 12/09/2021 21:50

Lol, some people seem to be labouring under a misapprehension that lesbians are incapable of making unwanted advances. I can assure you, at a population level, they are perfectly capable of these in the same way that men are. I'm a lesbian and have experienced this from other lesbians as have my friends, we just know who to avoid, that's all.

NiceGerbil · 12/09/2021 22:09

Well I suppose you wouldn't be a person interested in using this org for a break then.

Which is your choice.

Others make different choices.

Eg to be comfy sharing with females but not males.

This is how a lot of women and girls feel.

NiceGerbil · 12/09/2021 22:11

OP I would go back and just say that she needs to make it clear on the site etc that they are trans inclusive.

That's not tricky and it's up to her whether she does it or not.

I'd leave it then you've done your best and you can't force her to do anything.

OperationDessertStorm · 12/09/2021 22:29

How can she tell? That’s her answer? If Eddie Redmayne turns up it’s an issue, but Eddie Izzard is fine?

For a lunch that’s one thing, for shared sleeping accommodation and showers, that’s quite another.

JellySlice · 12/09/2021 22:38

Accommodation is often divided along sex lines out of a recognition that the majority of people are heterosexual

Nonsense. Accommodation is divided along sex lines out of a recognition that the overwhelming majority of assaults upon women are carried out by men.

Lol, some people seem to be labouring under a misapprehension that lesbians are incapable of making unwanted advances.

Lesbians, however, do not assault women who reject them. Neither do lesbians assume consent and take what they want. Lesbians do not rape other women.

TurquoiseBaubles · 12/09/2021 22:52

@suggestionsplease1

Lol, some people seem to be labouring under a misapprehension that lesbians are incapable of making unwanted advances. I can assure you, at a population level, they are perfectly capable of these in the same way that men are. I'm a lesbian and have experienced this from other lesbians as have my friends, we just know who to avoid, that's all.
fucking hell Angry
NiceGerbil · 12/09/2021 23:18

And segregated that way because it's an embedded social norm that when it comes to shared rooms there is separation because in general neither men nor women are comfy with opposite sex.

Eg school trips the children know each other. The sleeping is shared with same sex.

Is that silly then? To split into single sex for shared rooms on a yr 9 school trip?

PrincessNutella · 13/09/2021 03:55

Accommodation is not divided along sex lines because of sexual attraction. It is because we are a sexually dimorphic species, and the fact that the average male can beat the shit out of the average female.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 13/09/2021 06:59

Lol I can always rely on Suggestions to turn up and help complete the bingo card (ticks off ‘predatory lesbians’)

I think you’ve done all you can Shed. It should be clearly advertised that it’s mixed sex & then, as they say, the market will decide if that’s something lesbian & bi women want to go on.

God how shitty this all is. Women can’t have anything that men don’t want to literally muscle in on it

AnyOldPrion · 13/09/2021 07:15

The organiser is right - how can she tell? She is not in a position to know the genitalia of the people attending, unless she demands you all strip naked?

With rare exceptions, it’s obvious on sight, fully clothed, even from a distance.

But this thread is a perfect demonstration of how much it messes up so many of our societal conventions when men who claim they are women insist they are women and must be able to access all women’s spaces and events.

The organiser can no longer tell, when people apply to attend, whether they are male or female. Even asking for a picture of their passport or other document is not reliable.

So if she does choose, out of consideration for her female clients, to segregate sleeping accommodation by sex, it means that she will have to meet all new clients before she can allocate rooms. If some rooms are shared, she will have to make sure there’s some flexibility built in. Unless she waits until all guests have arrived, she won’t be sure how to allocate. And knowing how touchy some clients might be about having their sex referred to, however obliquely, she will likely not want to make it obvious by shifting people around, once the allocation is done.

She can choose not to do this, of course, but I think she would lose clients rapidly and word would go round.

The other alternative, which is to make it clear on booking that single sex exemptions are being applied, puts her at risk from transactivists who often target single sex spaces, even in such obviously reasonable organisations such as rape crisis and DV shelters.

The end result, of course, is that many organisers will stop organising such trips altogether. Others will continue, but shared accommodation, unless organised by those booking in as a group, will not be feasible and everyone will have the increased expense of single rooms.

And all this, because rather than accepting that they are male, but want to present as female, men are now demonstrating their power to enter wherever they like and overrule all the societal norms that have been developed to protect women.

Incredible that a genuinely disadvantaged minority, like lesbian women, are having so much taken from them, with the backing of governments, society and the law.

TheWeeDonkey · 13/09/2021 07:50

I agree you can usually tell, its a shame you can't use FaceTune in real life, but there it is.

The real shame as others have said is that these women only events will eventually cease. They'll either become mixed sex or be stopped altogether which is a great loss to women because as we all learn, a mixed sex space is a men's space where women are tolerated.