Transwoman in shared accommodation, take 2

[Shedbuilder]

I've been given permission by Mumsnet mods to start a new thread on this theme: apparently the last one was derailed overnight and has been wiped.

Earlier this year I went on a camping activity weekend organised by a bisexual woman who runs this as a side business. The group is specifically advertised as being for lesbian and bi women and inits early days was promoted only to 'known' lesbians and bi women. Since then it's grown and has advertised in Diva. At the camp I went to (we all took our own tents and camper vans) there were at least two transwomen. Other people tell me that there have been transwomen at previous events and it's clear from social media that there's been a lot of trans interest.

At the camp I attended the transwomen didn't do or say much, but there was quite a lot of posing and staring: so much so that women moved their tents/ vans to another area of the site.

I've now received notification of this group's autumn and winter events which are being held as weekend house parties in large lodges and bunkhouses. All the sleeping accommodation and bathrooms are shared: some shared bedrooms, some dorms.

Someone I know, a stunningly naive lesbian who's been in a LTR till fairly recently and has managed to avoid all the gender woo, has announced she is thinking of booking one of these winter weekends. I can see that one of the 'women' who's already signed up to the same event is actually a transwomen. It's not immediately apparent from their FB page, which includes a partial, filtered, face shot, but I've encountered this individual in a separate context and I know that they are male-bodied. This individual has already posted about looking forward to sharing the hot tub with new women.

I wouldn't want to wake up in a shared room with this person. My friend would be horrified to think that she would sharing a dining table with them on a lesbian and bisexual women's weekend —let alone a bedroom.

I've contacted the organiser and asked her for her policy on accommodating TWs in shared accommodation at an event promoted for lesbian and bisexual women. I've had no response so far and unfortunately I've also lost the legal advice referring to the Equality Act that was posted yesterday.

What do you think? What would you do? I have no intention of revealing the identity of the group here so please don't ask. Having attended one of this woman's events and met her I think she is operating in good faith and is in a difficult position. I'm fully aware of what coming out and saying 'no TWs' would mean to her and her business.

It's not really a straw man in this instance though is it? The OP's scenario is about a group of lesbian / bisexual women going away together. This evidence that I have referred to indicates that, at a population level, lesbians are at a higher risk of DVA from each other than straight women are from straight men. People on this board often consider trans lesbians to be straight men, don't they? In which case maybe they are the safer companions on this trip than the other lesbians?

It is absolutely a straw man as you are comparing intimate partner violence to violence from strangers. I am genuninely at a loss to understand why you can't see that those situations are not comparable. Unless you feel the need to conflate them to support an ideological argument? Which is just dishonest.

This evidence that I have referred to indicates that, at a population level, lesbians are at a higher risk of DVA from each other than straight women are from straight men
And the evidence you have referred to does not show this AT ALL. For the reasons I have given. You really need to do some work to understand how to interpret research before making claims on what research says.

The whole trying to rubbish female people not wanting to share hot tubs and rooms with male strangers on the grounds that they're more likely to be beaten up by other females...?

Well stepping away from that rather homophobic generalisation.....

There are many reasons why female people may choose not to share a hot tub or a room with a male stranger, regardless of how that male person chooses to define themselves.

There are many protected characteristics that mean that female people cannot share a hot tub or a room or an activity or a resource at all where a male stranger or male strangers are present.

The point of the OP is: female people booking on to this need to know that there will be male strangers present, rather than turn up and discover this has been concealed from them, as some female people will be distressed and the experience will not be what they had expected or can enjoy, while others will just plain have to turn around and leave, at great inconvenience and loss of money. There's a duty of clear selling, trades description, people are entitled to a fair and honest view of what is actually being sold.

It's also a point that to include male people into women only activities, accommodation and resources excludes some women. From women only provisions. Which kind of messes up the whole 'inclusion' idea, and makes it as a woman's provision a bit of a #fail. And rather sexist, as male people's needs are being met, but not all female people's needs.

In my backpacking days I sometimes stayed in mixed sex dorms at hostels; but they were always clear about the status at the time of booking and the Rough Guide/Lonely Planet always had this info.

It's the insidiousness of not openly declaring that a situation is mixed sex and allowing people to then make an informed decision (ie that they might feel safer with strange males than with those awful predatory lezzers) that really rankles.

Who benefits from women being made to feel confused and uncomfortable about blurred boundaries with men?

I've stayed in large mixed-sex dorms in Alpine mountain hostels and that's been fine (apart from the snoring). There is a clearly understood code of how to behave.

However, I would be really unhappy about discovering I was sharing a 2 or 3 bed hotel room with a transwoman - not least as the sort of transwoman who joins a woman/lesbian only holiday has already demonstrated a total lack of concern about women's boundaries.

I was at Brighton Pride and filled in that questionnaire, Flying Oink!

I'd trust that as much as any other survey, I think. All those US meta-analyses based on people reporting to the police, DV services and hospitals are seriously misleading. So many lesbian couples fly completely under the radar and would never show up in those figures. And as you say, it's bisexual women who report the highest incidence of IPV and you don't have to be a genius to work out why.

The OP's scenario is about a group of lesbian / bisexual women going away together. This evidence that I have referred to indicates that, at a population level, lesbians are at a higher risk of DVA from each other than straight women are from straight men

even if that is true, which it isn't, we're not talking about DV in intimate relationships. Show us the stats that prove that women are more at risk from unknown lesbians than they are from unknown men. Don't hold your breath while looking though.....

Shedbuilder
I agree, and I think domestic violence in lesbian relationships doesn't get enough light (or funding).
But the one survey that crops up over and over again stating women were more likely to suffer domestic violence in a relationship with a woman than in a relationship with a man is misleading so I get a bit "broken record" with it.

And suggesting that lesbians are more likely to attack other women in the showers than men are is just madness.

Loads of domestic violence surveys are suspect, there are surveys that show men are as likely to be victims as women in straight relationships (but when you control for defensive violence, frequency and severity of violence etc etc you see the true story). MRAs love to quote these kinds of things.

Like when mothers are more likely to abuse children than fathers, and then you control for the fact mothers spend vastly more time with their children and the abuse includes single spanking or neglect and the abuse by fathers is more violent and more sexually violent...

That's why I'm glad there are posters here with the experience in statistics to explain things. Unfortunately soundbites are hard to defeat.

It doesn't take a genius to suspect that any domestic violence research which suggests that lesbian women commit more domestic violence than men is (at best) doing something like counting criticising or nagging as domestic violence alongside serious physical attacks.
Just like the research which suggests that loads of men suffer domestic violence from women.
If you ask about physical violence only, you'll get a very different outcome.
But of course the TRAs know that.

I wonder how Diva will get on with its new holidays for trans and cross dressing people (which are also open to their family and friends).

The single sex dorms at the Youth hostelling association (YHA) has now been relabelled to single gender dorms.

I would not want to go on a lesbian camping trip which included trans.

I do have some sympathy with the organist though, a friend attempted to arrange a small female only festival, but couldn’t get beyond early stages as TRAs were all over it and she felt it was safer to not bother.

They zero in on these events as do "non binary" female people, to ensure that they are "inclusive".

@Sunndown

I wonder how Diva will get on with its new holidays for trans and cross dressing people (which are also open to their family and friends).

It sounds like a modern take on Casa Susanna.

www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2017/may/17/cross-dressing-men-celebrated-barbican-uk-london-photography-exhibition-casa-susanna

@KhoshkaKatya

I think the point is that “no room sharing with strangers” might be a good boundary.

Xenophobia!

Can we guess what would happen if an organisation/ company were to offer mixed sex holidays which include trans and non binary , and other holidays for female bodied people only. I would really hope they could work well for everybody, but separately. I imagine that certain people would not be happy with that solution. As a lesbian I find it hugely offensive that there is a suggestion that women are more at risk from lesbians than from men and transwomen. I acknowledge that some DV can be committed by lesbians but this does not mean women are at risk from other women in the type of situation described. Women’s holidays we used to go on were fantastic in that there would be no chance of encountering males of any identity on them. It’s a poisoned chalice now if the companies are obscuring the truth

There is a clearly understood code of how to behave.

Which I doubt includes looking forward to sharing the hot tub with new women.

Poisoned chalice is a perfect summary.

@FlyingOink

The OP's scenario is about a group of lesbian / bisexual women going away together. This evidence that I have referred to indicates that, at a population level, lesbians are at a higher risk of DVA from each other than straight women are from straight men.

People on this board often consider trans lesbians to be straight men, don't they? In which case maybe they are the safer companions on this trip than the other lesbians?

This is massively offensive but I'm sure that was the intent.

Also, it ignores the fact that this is not a randomly selected group of straight men. These are straight men who have decided that they have a right to attend an event that is specifically aimed at women.

There’s a question I’ve begun to ask more frequently in various places. What decent man would insist he must have access to women’s spaces as it became more and more clear that his presence would cause distress to some of the women who had previously used that space?

I believe the answer is none,

@Sunndown

I wonder how Diva will get on with its new holidays for trans and cross dressing people (which are also open to their family and friends).

Great, I'm sure they'll be well attended.

The issue comes when the events are advertised as women only but are actually mixed sex. So long as they are clearly advertised as mixed sex people can make informed choices about what suits them.

The zeroing in on women's events to 'ensure they are inclusive' is definitely a thing - however when every women's event is inclusive of male people, then every women's event is excluding and discriminating against the female people who cannot attend mixed sex events.

I want to see those who care so much about inclusion show equal championing of female only resources and events and all needs being met as opposed to a situation that can feel like a demand that women's events and resources always centre people born male and no care at all for what that does to female people.

Either it really is about 'all women' and 'inclusion' which is the reason given for including male people, or it's just about male people dominating and taking away resources from female people.

@catzwhiskas

suggestionsplease1 how do we know your particular statistics on this do not include men, given how they seem to want to rename themselves as lesbians pretty frequently? I call bs.

There are several studies on this issue, dating from the 1980s I believe. I think it would be fairly unusual if they all contained a high proportion of natal males identifying as lesbians.

I want to see those who care so much about inclusion show equal championing of female only resources and events and all needs being met as opposed to a situation that can feel like a demand that women's events and resources always centre people born male and no care at all for what that does to female people. Either it really is about 'all women' and 'inclusion' which is the reason given for including male people, or it's just about male people dominating and taking away resources from female people

This!

@futureghost

It's not really a straw man in this instance though is it? The OP's scenario is about a group of lesbian / bisexual women going away together. This evidence that I have referred to indicates that, at a population level, lesbians are at a higher risk of DVA from each other than straight women are from straight men. People on this board often consider trans lesbians to be straight men, don't they? In which case maybe they are the safer companions on this trip than the other lesbians?

It is absolutely a straw man as you are comparing intimate partner violence to violence from strangers. I am genuninely at a loss to understand why you can't see that those situations are not comparable. Unless you feel the need to conflate them to support an ideological argument? Which is just dishonest.

Have you ever been on trips away like the ones referred to by the OP?

I have, many times.

They are often attended by women well known to each other, often different friendship groups, often couples, often exes of each other as well (there aren't that many of us unfortunately, and there aren't that many events for us either).... as well as others that are less well known.

They are also commonly viewed by people attending as an opportunity to get to know other potential romantic partners. They're aimed at lesbian and bisexual women, after all, not simply women overall.

So your understanding is flawed. These are not generally all complete strangers. There are existing relationships, there are often exes with history and there is often hope to start new relationships - with some people attending proving very popular/ desirable to several others, with all the drama that can bring, lol.

@Antinerak
I don't get the issue? It's an all women event and you're worried about women being there? I'm just glad men aren't invited to share the space with women

I can’t make up my mind if you are being deliberately obtuse, or goady

Woman are not born with penises. Not all woman want to share a room with someone who has a penis

Personally I don’t have an issue with a TW who has been through full surgery, nor to I have an issue with them in most daily interaction I may have with them. I do with someone who still has a penis and wishes to invade women only spaces. There are to many occasions when woman have been assaulted

There’s a question I’ve begun to ask more frequently in various places. What decent man would insist he must have access to women’s spaces as it became more and more clear that his presence would cause distress to some of the women who had previously used that space?

I'm a woman, but straight. I really enjoy woman-only events (looking forward to FiLIA, yay!) but would not attend a lesbian and bi-woman event, because - I'm not lesbian or bi-sexual.

It's simple, isn't it?