Transwoman in shared accommodation, take 2

[Shedbuilder]

I've been given permission by Mumsnet mods to start a new thread on this theme: apparently the last one was derailed overnight and has been wiped.

Earlier this year I went on a camping activity weekend organised by a bisexual woman who runs this as a side business. The group is specifically advertised as being for lesbian and bi women and inits early days was promoted only to 'known' lesbians and bi women. Since then it's grown and has advertised in Diva. At the camp I went to (we all took our own tents and camper vans) there were at least two transwomen. Other people tell me that there have been transwomen at previous events and it's clear from social media that there's been a lot of trans interest.

At the camp I attended the transwomen didn't do or say much, but there was quite a lot of posing and staring: so much so that women moved their tents/ vans to another area of the site.

I've now received notification of this group's autumn and winter events which are being held as weekend house parties in large lodges and bunkhouses. All the sleeping accommodation and bathrooms are shared: some shared bedrooms, some dorms.

Someone I know, a stunningly naive lesbian who's been in a LTR till fairly recently and has managed to avoid all the gender woo, has announced she is thinking of booking one of these winter weekends. I can see that one of the 'women' who's already signed up to the same event is actually a transwomen. It's not immediately apparent from their FB page, which includes a partial, filtered, face shot, but I've encountered this individual in a separate context and I know that they are male-bodied. This individual has already posted about looking forward to sharing the hot tub with new women.

I wouldn't want to wake up in a shared room with this person. My friend would be horrified to think that she would sharing a dining table with them on a lesbian and bisexual women's weekend —let alone a bedroom.

I've contacted the organiser and asked her for her policy on accommodating TWs in shared accommodation at an event promoted for lesbian and bisexual women. I've had no response so far and unfortunately I've also lost the legal advice referring to the Equality Act that was posted yesterday.

What do you think? What would you do? I have no intention of revealing the identity of the group here so please don't ask. Having attended one of this woman's events and met her I think she is operating in good faith and is in a difficult position. I'm fully aware of what coming out and saying 'no TWs' would mean to her and her business.

Thats a fair point FlyingOink. I mean granted I know more men than lesbians, and I've never had a violent or intimidating encounter with a lesbian (unfortunately I can't say the same for men) but Suggestions seems to really know their stuff. Maybe the type of meet up that OP is describing is like Fight Club, but obviously she can't mention that.

Lesbian Fight Club sounds far too dangerous for transwomen, tbh. And fighting is so gender non-conforming isn't it?
If a transwoman had to resort to self-defence in such a dangerous environment it might trigger dysphoria.

journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0959353510370183

Suffering in a silent vacuum’: Woman-to-woman partner abuse as a challenge to the lesbian feminist vision

Rebecca BarnesFirst Published October 18, 2010 Other
doi.org/10.1177/0959353510370183
Article information
No Access
Abstract
This reflection addresses the challenge which violence and abuse in women’s same-sex relationships pose to lesbian feminist conceptualizations of woman-to-woman relationships as egalitarian and non-violent. Whilst recognizing the value of the ideals which lesbian feminism promoted in terms of presenting an alternative to patriarchal oppression and domination, this reflection draws upon data from the author’s qualitative study of woman-to-woman partner abuse to identify the implications of such ideals for women’s disclosure of and understanding of their experiences of abuse. For some participants, the pervasiveness of expectations of mutuality and non-violence in woman-to-woman relationships contributed to the silence and denial which surrounds woman-to-woman partner abuse.

journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/107780120200801005

Speaking Silence: Definitional Dialogues in Abusive Lesbian Relationships
Grace GiorgioFirst Published October 1, 2002 Research Article
doi.org/10.1177/107780120200801005
Article information
No Access
Abstract
Long-term, in-depth interviews with 11 abused lesbians and 10 domestic violence advocates reveal how lesbian victims struggle to define the relationship's abuse, their lesbian identity, and their own understanding of gendered violence in the context of cultural and institutional stigmatization of lesbians. By understanding abused lesbians’ silence as constitutive of their definitional dialogues about their relationships and the abuse, researchers and advocates can begin to determine who asserts definitional hegemony in the relationship. The author concludes by suggesting practical strategics that researchers and advocates can deploy to include abused lesbians in domestic violence theory, praxis, and services.

@FlyingOink

Lesbian Fight Club sounds far too dangerous for transwomen, tbh. And fighting is so gender non-conforming isn't it? If a transwoman had to resort to self-defence in such a dangerous environment it might trigger dysphoria.

It would make a great band name though.

Any chance of an acknowledgment that IPV stats have nothing to do with this thread anyway and you were and are derailing?

Good luck with that.

Any acknowledgment that safety isn’t the only reason that women don’t want to share rooms with men?

I do wish that issues of privacy and dignity would be considered more when it comes to women.

This conversation is being derailed into yet another version of the trope:

“The only way women can justify single-sex spaces is because awful things have happened to them”

Well, you know, I haven’t been raped or harassed in a toilet, nor anywhere else (although I have been violently assaulted on the street by a man).

But I ENJOY the atmosphere of a woman-only single sex event. As a straight woman, I like being free of the male gaze, of the way men take up my space and air time and brain - as is happening on this thread ironically.

I’m not bothered by the “lesbian gaze” - I think it’s fairly obvious I am vanilla boringly straight.

I shouldn’t have to justify a need to enjoy woman-only single sex events by emphasising my trauma. I should just be able to go to them and enjoy them; and the organisers should be able to organise them in peace as is their legal right.

It's a shame that some feminists seem to think that lesbian domestic abuse is a humorous subject, isn't it?

Maybe you should try having a laugh with some of the victims over it?

This conversation is being derailed into yet another version of the trope:

“The only way women can justify single-sex spaces is because awful things have happened to them”

It is, and though males are allowed to demand all manner of things of others because their feelings are fragile and they'll feel excluded, the only time women get any sort of grudging concession to ours is if we've suffered some awful male-based trauma.

There's already a goth band called Lesbian Bed Death, so that might cause minor confusion.

I had no idea lesbians were such a scary bunch, I must say. I must know the wrong sort, because the ones I know are all really quite civilised.

Definitely sounds like transwomen should go & have their own event rather than associating with those terrifying types whose idea of a fun weekend is apparently to get rowdy pissed & clobber each others' exes. The TW can come up with much more ladylike ways to have a good time, I'm sure...

This thread is so depressing. I mean we are all acutely aware of how women's only spaces are being infiltrated and taken over by MBP but... I don't know, this was just a sad read.

Something that should be so enjoyable and simple is being turned into a circus and the only ones who will lose out are the exact people the event was designed to benefit.

I'm sure it's exhausting to constantly have to fight for the simplest of things, having to cite legalities and legislature and use politically correct language when shouting WE DONT WANT TO SHARE THIS SPACE WITH MEN would be accurate, easier... just sadly not acceptable.

@suggestionsplease1

It's a shame that some feminists seem to think that lesbian domestic abuse is a humorous subject, isn't it?

Maybe you should try having a laugh with some of the victims over it?

Then start a thread on it. Stop derailing this one.

It's a shame that some feminists seem to think that lesbian domestic abuse is a humorous subject, isn't it?
Who thinks that?

@PaddleBoardingMomma

This thread is so depressing. I mean we are all acutely aware of how women's only spaces are being infiltrated and taken over by MBP but... I don't know, this was just a sad read.

Something that should be so enjoyable and simple is being turned into a circus and the only ones who will lose out are the exact people the event was designed to benefit.

I'm sure it's exhausting to constantly have to fight for the simplest of things, having to cite legalities and legislature and use politically correct language when shouting WE DONT WANT TO SHARE THIS SPACE WITH MEN would be accurate, easier... just sadly not acceptable.

Its really depressing. Its sad that women can't just want single sex spaces or events just because they don't want men there, there has to be a reason and that reason has to be approved by men.

Whats even worse is when women feel obligated to share their trauma to justify wanting female only spaces or support. Thats the thing that sickens me to most I think.

though males are allowed to demand all manner of things of others because their feelings are fragile and they'll feel excluded, the only time women get any sort of grudging concession to ours is if we've suffered some awful male-based trauma

If the argument is entirely about safety then examples have to be given (although women still get accused of "weaponising trauma"). No examples of men attacking transwomen need to be given, though. We have to take it as read that men will attack a transwoman in a male facility.

However if we agree to talk about safety then we need to consider the safety of everyone.

And if lesbians are equally or more dangerous than straight men then there is no safety benefit for transwomen being in female spaces.

So it goes back to what people actually want, right? And one man wants something so a group of women have to acquiesce.

Not that I agree with this language - I don't
But would hosting a "Cis lesbian and Bi women's weekender" be the get around needed for women running businesses and looking to avoid the tra wrath

How can you advertise a holiday for one lesbian/bisexual women only? Surely that is discrimination?

Can she offer two trips, one including penises and those happy to be around them, and one single sex, justified by whichever law applies, adding events as necessary to ensure it does apply?