Transwoman in shared accommodation, take 2

[Shedbuilder]

I've been given permission by Mumsnet mods to start a new thread on this theme: apparently the last one was derailed overnight and has been wiped.

Earlier this year I went on a camping activity weekend organised by a bisexual woman who runs this as a side business. The group is specifically advertised as being for lesbian and bi women and inits early days was promoted only to 'known' lesbians and bi women. Since then it's grown and has advertised in Diva. At the camp I went to (we all took our own tents and camper vans) there were at least two transwomen. Other people tell me that there have been transwomen at previous events and it's clear from social media that there's been a lot of trans interest.

At the camp I attended the transwomen didn't do or say much, but there was quite a lot of posing and staring: so much so that women moved their tents/ vans to another area of the site.

I've now received notification of this group's autumn and winter events which are being held as weekend house parties in large lodges and bunkhouses. All the sleeping accommodation and bathrooms are shared: some shared bedrooms, some dorms.

Someone I know, a stunningly naive lesbian who's been in a LTR till fairly recently and has managed to avoid all the gender woo, has announced she is thinking of booking one of these winter weekends. I can see that one of the 'women' who's already signed up to the same event is actually a transwomen. It's not immediately apparent from their FB page, which includes a partial, filtered, face shot, but I've encountered this individual in a separate context and I know that they are male-bodied. This individual has already posted about looking forward to sharing the hot tub with new women.

I wouldn't want to wake up in a shared room with this person. My friend would be horrified to think that she would sharing a dining table with them on a lesbian and bisexual women's weekend —let alone a bedroom.

I've contacted the organiser and asked her for her policy on accommodating TWs in shared accommodation at an event promoted for lesbian and bisexual women. I've had no response so far and unfortunately I've also lost the legal advice referring to the Equality Act that was posted yesterday.

What do you think? What would you do? I have no intention of revealing the identity of the group here so please don't ask. Having attended one of this woman's events and met her I think she is operating in good faith and is in a difficult position. I'm fully aware of what coming out and saying 'no TWs' would mean to her and her business.

*in essence, those who do not believe in binary sex are going to need to respect that some people do, and need services accordingly

No, people who do not believe in binary sex are going to have to realise that they are wrong. It's not a matter of belief, but fact. Binary sex is a fact, not an opinion, its not something you believe in or not.

@ManifestDestinee

*in essence, those who do not believe in binary sex are going to need to respect that some people do, and need services accordingly

No, people who do not believe in binary sex are going to have to realise that they are wrong. It's not a matter of belief, but fact. Binary sex is a fact, not an opinion, its not something you believe in or not.

I agree with you.

I just don't think that's a realistic solution that is going to end in female people having access to female only services and ending their exclusion and harms any time soon.

@JellySlice

Accommodation is often divided along sex lines out of a recognition that the majority of people are heterosexual

Nonsense. Accommodation is divided along sex lines out of a recognition that the overwhelming majority of assaults upon women are carried out by men.

Lol, some people seem to be labouring under a misapprehension that lesbians are incapable of making unwanted advances.

Lesbians, however, do not assault women who reject them. Neither do lesbians assume consent and take what they want. Lesbians do not rape other women.

Unfortunately, and I wish this wasn't this wasn't the case as it is my own community that I am talking about, you are wrong.

Women can and do assault and abuse other women, emotionally, psychologically, physically and sexually.

You can look up the research on this, and unfortunately there are some studies showing higher rates of intimate partner violence in lesbian relationships compared to opposite sex relationships.

Lesbians also assault each other is the same thing as well female people commit domestic violence too/girls bully each other.

It isn't a reason to throw away all safeguarding and boundaries say well if you're at risk of possible assault from another female homosexual we might as well throw you open to risk from male people too and just give up caring.

98% of sexual offences are committed by people who are biologically male. Over 80% of victims of sexual offences are female.

And this still does nothing about the female people excluded from mixed sex provision because of faith, culture, disability including autism and trauma, and freedom of belief. Even if every single person in the situation was absolutely verified as not going to commit an assault on anyone else, those female people are still going to be left without any provision so that people born male can access it.

You can look up the research on this, and unfortunately there are some studies showing higher rates of intimate partner violence in lesbian relationships compared to opposite sex relationships.

I have. A fair amount of the research seems to be US with some survey work in the UK.

I'd be better informed I you could signpost to some UK figures that have good methodology to support them (I had a quick look at some charities/organisations and they reported comparable levels of IPV for lesbian v heterosexual relationships but they were non-probabilistic surveys).

@suggestionsplease1

Your argument is such a straw man. Women are wary of men because nearly all women will have experienced harassment, intimidation, voyeurism or assault from men - as well as being brought up with media news stories and fictional stories depicting women being assaulted and killed by men. Most men are bigger and stronger than most women making self-defence difficult and unlikely to be successful for women.

This is why women do not want men in their intimate spaces. Decent men know and respect this. Predatory men and misogynistic men do not.

I'm a lesbian too, Suggestions. Yes, you do get some DV and abusive behaviour in lesbian relationships, and gay relationships too. Can you link to the studies you have in mind rather than hope we look up the same ones you are referring to? Everything on the subject I've ever read has commented on the difficulty of reaching a large and random sample of same-sex attracted people and too often they rely on statistical extrapolations based on police or hospital records.

The only one I've ever been personally aware of was a self-selecting one. Women were asked to participate only if they had experience of violence and abuse and the results were just what you'd expect — as misleading and useless as the oft-touted teenage trans suicide stats.

I can see how this would put an end to single-sex events for women.
Because of the narcissistic insistence that we women validate Transwomen’s “female” status. Because, as we all know, it’s our job to look after everyone- even those trying to steal or erase our existence and our hard-won sex-based rights.

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.01506/full

"Life-time prevalence of IPV in LGB couples appeared to be similar to or higher than in heterosexual ones: 61.1% of bisexual women, 43.8% of lesbian women, 37.3% of bisexual men, and 26.0% of homosexual men experienced IPV during their life, while 35.0% of heterosexual women and 29.0% of heterosexual men experienced IPV. When episodes of severe violence were considered, prevalence was similar or higher for LGB adults (bisexual women: 49.3%; lesbian women: 29.4%; homosexual men: 16.4%) compared to heterosexual adults (heterosexual women: 23.6%; heterosexual men: 13.9%) (Breiding et al., 2013)."

d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/56436846/LombardCompanion_BarnesDonovan_LGBT_DVA_mockREF-with-cover-page-v2.pdf?Expires=1631536195&Signature=DrVprZjKu9SQhjL9pqUCFh8ZHW~Qlbz9xXtMl1pFKjMoF~sxkLciSi3gb5N5~1dkBxTQdtzOTJTs3MsgEu9f-nB3F~hhpwZXXAVIuR-P~qFL5aA~4um-bJhOSYsZy2DPgbSadomlySHyGFBtbGt0sbtIuuz26-WLHt9x9J6OasgteZ2aKnIVmhfqBcnaz9Q~QsU8MyJIvLSZ3X8teIuBh7vtcTgY2byJ323EzGOqh4NMXCfg3uDlonU8KlLCReenBg~a10LiHaCCmd~pXaLSfqIcr52K6mxd~DQFmX2CHC~YR9GI5XooCDGOVgXA4XIuwyxdvjmf1Bf-lDS2gra07A__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

"A recent meta-analysis of 14 US studies of the prevalence of DVA in lesbian
relationships, found prevalence rates for physical, psychological/emotional and sexual abuse
were as high as 58%, 64.5% and 56.8%, respectively (Badenes-Ribera et al., 2015)"

I've taken a couple of key quotes that refer to the research finding higher percentages of lesbian women experiencing DVA / IPV compared to heterosexual women but it's best to read the full studies.

@Shedbuilder. I have been following your thread with interest and just came on to sympathise.

I had a thread a couple of years ago where I was put in an awkward situation with a TW sharing accommodation. It wasn't exactly the same as your dilemma but had some similarities. If you search on my user name you will find the thread.

Covid intervened and my planned trip was cancelled so the situation resolved itself but I am sure the same dilemma will arise again at some point.

I hope you work something out for both yourself and your friend. And I hope you have alerted the organiser enough that she starts to think things through.

@suggestionsplease1

I am struggling to think of why you think this is relevant to the topic of the OP. These studies are for people already in relationships. Inthe OP we are talking about women feeling intimidated by men they do not know but who have chosen to enter women only spaces/ intimate spaces such as showers, toilets and hot tubs!

As I stated above, nearly all, if not all women, will have experienced harassment, intimidation, voyeurism and assault from men they are not in relationships with. Very, very few women will have experienced this from women they do not know.

We have single sex spaces to protect women from sexually predatory men. That includes voyeurism.

[quote futureghost]@suggestionsplease1

Your argument is such a straw man. Women are wary of men because nearly all women will have experienced harassment, intimidation, voyeurism or assault from men - as well as being brought up with media news stories and fictional stories depicting women being assaulted and killed by men. Most men are bigger and stronger than most women making self-defence difficult and unlikely to be successful for women.

This is why women do not want men in their intimate spaces. Decent men know and respect this. Predatory men and misogynistic men do not.[/quote]
It's not really a straw man in this instance though is it?

The OP's scenario is about a group of lesbian / bisexual women going away together. This evidence that I have referred to indicates that, at a population level, lesbians are at a higher risk of DVA from each other than straight women are from straight men.

People on this board often consider trans lesbians to be straight men, don't they? In which case maybe they are the safer companions on this trip than the other lesbians?

I've taken a couple of key quotes that refer to the research finding higher percentages of lesbian women experiencing DVA / IPV compared to heterosexual women but it's best to read the full studies.

I've read those studies in the past. We would differ in our interpretation of the key findings (and that would differ again from our selection of "key quotes").

This is a thread about a specific situation in the UK. You made an assertion and were asked for (in my case) UK figures or studies to support it. I accept that I am not the target audience for your references.

suggestionsplease1 how do we know your particular statistics on this do not include men, given how they seem to want to rename themselves as lesbians pretty frequently? I call bs.

You can look up the research on this, and unfortunately there are some studies showing higher rates of intimate partner violence in lesbian relationships compared to opposite sex relationships
The survey has been debunked several times. It said lesbians and bisexual women were more likely to have been the victims of domestic abuse, not the perpetrators.
I know abuse exists in lesbian relationships but that survey is misquoted so often that it has imprinted on people's understanding of the issue.

This survey asks specifically if lesbians have been abused by a same sex partner and the answer is 22% have.
<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=sigmaresearch.org.uk/downloads/domesticviolence.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi0mJLG9fvyAhWSX8AKHUikCbsQFnoECAsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw29z3bvdUw2zYQmfLuQnzLo" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">link

And the demographic most likely to have been abused is bisexual women but again that oft-quoted survey doesn't specify that means abused by other women and not by men. Given that 90% of bisexuals are in relationships with the opposite sex as per the Pew survey, it would make sense that a minimum of 90% of DV suffered by bisexual women would be from a male partner.

There are quite a few studies in this area now. I know people are ideologically motivated to discredit them on these boards as it does not fit in with the narrative, but the broader picture shows they do hold weight.

The studies often acknowledge the attempts to downplay this issue amongst lesbians themselves and in some feminist commentary and note that this atmosphere is what can make it harder for lesbians to open about their experiences and get the support they need.

Setting aside the research on intimate partner violence (which I am not qualified to interpret and is anyway irrelevant to the OP's point), are you genuinely suggesting, @suggestionsplease1, that women are at greater risk from lesbian/bi women they are not in a relationship with than from straight men they are not in a relationship with?

@catzwhiskas

suggestionsplease1 how do we know your particular statistics on this do not include men, given how they seem to want to rename themselves as lesbians pretty frequently? I call bs.

May I have a quick [merail] to say that this is a substantial problem in clinical and related papers.

Many journals signed up to SAGER guidelines (Sex and Gender Equity in Research) but all too often authors are allowed not to disaggregate data by sex. All too often sex and gender are used interchangeably instead of distinguished.

And I've reviewed/read papers making remarkable pronouncements where the authors have announced that they accepted self-ID as part of the recruitment. They then proceed to report findings that can not be validated because of the trial design or methodology that they selected.

Also we aren't even talking about domestic violence in this situation.
We're talking about the likelihood of being at risk from another woman in a shared accommodation setting, and PP have suggested that risk is higher if the other woman is a lesbian. There is nothing to suggest this is the case. No stats on this at all.
I seem to remember transmen committed violent crime at a higher rate than other women (in the survey that showed trans women retained male offending patterns) but without controlling for roid rage I'm not sure that information is of much use.

quite a few studies in this area now
I know people are ideologically motivated to discredit them on these boards

There are quite a few studies in several areas. That doesn't make them good, useful, or informative. If anything, it leads to profound misunderstandings when wider audiences don't understand the methodologies that underpin systematic reviews, meta-analysis, pooled analysis and narrative reviews. That is before considerations such as GRADE (the evaluation of quality of evidence) come into play or the RoB (risk of bias - relating to study design etc.).

This has nothing to do with ideology but more, perhaps, to do with the fact that several of the people in this conversation have some experience of evaluating trial/study/survey design and analysis plus the tools for assessing the quality of evidence.

There are quite a few studies in this area now Not really, most weight is given to one study that suggests homosexual relationships are more violent than straight ones.
Whereas as I've explained, many of the women studied had suffered domestic violence from a previous male partner.
I think the 22% statistic is closer to the truth - it absolutely does happen, but the notion that lesbians are more violent than straight men in the home doesn't pan out in reality.
And although this is a total derail, I'm going to repeat the fact that lesbians are not a threat to other women in shared accommodation scenarios, and to suggest so is homophobia.

I think the point is that “no room sharing with strangers” might be a good boundary.

The OP's scenario is about a group of lesbian / bisexual women going away together. This evidence that I have referred to indicates that, at a population level, lesbians are at a higher risk of DVA from each other than straight women are from straight men.

People on this board often consider trans lesbians to be straight men, don't they? In which case maybe they are the safer companions on this trip than the other lesbians?

This is massively offensive but I'm sure that was the intent.