Rosie Duffield thank you

[Whatthechicken]

I haven’t seen another thread on this today and I know she must be on here - thank you Rosie!

Rosie on Twitter today:

twitter.com/rosieduffield1/status/1436276236049862661?s=21

Hope that’s a clicky link.

Despite the hate you may be getting Rosie, there is a legion behind you!

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

It's illegal to wrongly self-ID

In what sense?

[CatherinaJTV]

@Waitwhat23

How is it not the law? EA2010, section 7?

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/7

This is simply a description of the protected characteristic of gender reassignment?

Please explain the law around single sex spaces (bearing in mind the exemptions allowed).

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/484857/Providing_services_for_transgender_customers-a_guide.pdf

A trans person should be free to select the facilities (such as toilets or changing rooms)
appropriate to the gender in which they present. For example, when a trans person starts
to live in their acquired gender on a full-time basis they should be afforded the right to
use the facilities appropriate to their acquired gender. Service providers must avoid
discriminating against anyone with the protected characteristic of ‘gender reassignment’.

[Waitwhat23]

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It's illegal to wrongly self-ID

In what sense?

@catherinajtv As the GRA reform Bill is a draft and hasn't been passed yet, how can it currently be illegal?

[GreyhoundG1rl]

How can anybody "wrongly Self ID"? . Doesn't the very nature of it preclude anyone telling them they're wrong?!

[CatherinaJTV]

@merrymouse

I was misgendered until my boobs became absolutely unignorable.

You might have been misgendered as a child. Without an Adam’s Apple and a deep voice it is unlikely that you would mis-sexed as an adult.

I think you are confusing prejudice against people who are gender nonconforming and genuine inability to discern sex.

so you are saying every time a NGC woman gets misgendered, it's malice/intentional, rather than a mistake?

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

A trans person should be free to select the facilities (such as toilets or changing rooms)
appropriate to the gender in which they present. For example, when a trans person starts^ to live in their acquired gender on a full-time basis they should be afforded the right to^ use the facilities appropriate to their acquired gender. Service providers must avoid^ discriminating against anyone with the protected characteristic of ‘gender reassignment’.^

That's a biased interpretation of the law, not the law itself.

[merrymouse]

It's illegal to wrongly self-ID

What does that mean? How could you wrongly self ID if the entire concept is subjective? Are you excluding people who are gender fluid?

Please answer the question and actually explain on what grounds somebody would be taken to court because they had wrongly self ID’d.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Discrimination in the EA2010 is not based on people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment trumping women's privacy and dignity. It is interpreted in that way by lobby groups.

[lazylinguist]

It's illegal to wrongly self-ID

What does that mean? How could you wrongly self ID if the entire concept is subjective?

Yes, that's what I was about to ask. How can you self-ID 'wrongly' when self ID means you are whatever you say you are?

[MrsOvertonsWindow]

So many attempts on this thread to divert women from celebrating an ethical woman MP who is standing up for women's rights and child safeguarding with lots of "what about the toilets?" and flaky versions of Stonewall fantasy law.

Rosie Duffield's an excellent MP - and good for her for calling out the hypocrisy of that mayor.

[CatherinaJTV]

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It's illegal to wrongly self-ID

In what sense?

have you read the draft bill?

[CatherinaJTV]

@lazylinguist

It's illegal to wrongly self-ID

What does that mean? How could you wrongly self ID if the entire concept is subjective?

Yes, that's what I was about to ask. How can you self-ID 'wrongly' when self ID means you are whatever you say you are?

the spectre raised here and elsewhere is the man who frivolously claims to be a (trans) woman to get access to women's spaces. That's not what GRA reform is about and it would be illegal to falsely claim you are trans to access women's spaces, as alleged to commit further crimes.

[GrabbingTheWorldByTheLapels]

@CatherinaJTV it is a thing though isn’t it?
You are not arguing in good faith here. You assert you were misgendered presumably until you hit puberty or the effects of puberty became more recognisable.

And once through puberty It’s not just about the boobs though, is it? For men who gone through puberty the differences are recognisable instantly in their height, build, breadth of shoulders, pelvis, shape of jaw, voice and so many other physical traits that differentiate them from a natal woman irrespective of how they choose to present.

As the fabulous Girls Aloud once sang ‘you can’t mistake (my) biology! The way that (we) talk/The way that (we) walk/ its there in (our) thoughts..”

It is a evolutionary trait - we do recognise the opposite sex. We’re biologically primed to do so.

[CatherinaJTV]

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Discrimination in the EA2010 is not based on people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment trumping women's privacy and dignity. It is interpreted in that way by lobby groups.

I quoted from the official government guidance above?

[Waitwhat23]

@catherinajtv the document you have linked is a 'good practice' document written by a Government department and a special interest lobby group who state various things but do not actually link them to the specific relevant legislation.

The specific mention of single sex spaces says -

'Separate and single sex services

You may only treat people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment differently regarding access to services reserved for their self-identified gender if you can demonstrate that the way you have approached a situation is a ‘proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim’ and so is objectively justifiable.You need to be able to
show that there is no less discriminatory way to achieve the aim.

Unlawful discrimination against people with the protected characteristic of gender
reassignment is not acceptable and consequently the exception has to be used in exceptional circumstances. Decisions made cannot be based on personal prejudice but on evidence of detriment to others, and the service provider will need to show that a less discriminatory way to achieve the objective was not available. '

There is detriment to others (women, who are also a protected characteristic) so single sex toilets are a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. There is various evidence that mixed sex or 'gender neutral' toilets are detrimental to women. The English Government even agrees - <a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20210515234830/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/15/exclusive-return-ladies-gents-lavatories-ministers-tell-architects/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20210515234830/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/15/exclusive-return-ladies-gents-lavatories-ministers-tell-architects/

I also suspect that the group who have 'advised' the Government are very much in the line of Stonewall's 'representing the law as they want it to be, not as it is' (as pointed out by an independent review of the University of Essex).

[merrymouse]

have you read the draft bill?

Please answer the question.

On what grounds would somebody be judged to have wrongly self ID’d if identity is a subjective concept.

[CatherinaJTV]

[quote GrabbingTheWorldByTheLapels]@CatherinaJTV it is a thing though isn’t it?
You are not arguing in good faith here. You assert you were misgendered presumably until you hit puberty or the effects of puberty became more recognisable.

And once through puberty It’s not just about the boobs though, is it? For men who gone through puberty the differences are recognisable instantly in their height, build, breadth of shoulders, pelvis, shape of jaw, voice and so many other physical traits that differentiate them from a natal woman irrespective of how they choose to present.

As the fabulous Girls Aloud once sang ‘you can’t mistake (my) biology! The way that (we) talk/The way that (we) walk/ its there in (our) thoughts..”

It is a evolutionary trait - we do recognise the opposite sex. We’re biologically primed to do so.[/quote]
My class mate went through puberty and was still read as a man. That whole "biologically primed" thing isn't really (a thing, that is).

[CatherinaJTV]

this is a good dissection of the Duffield thread, I find.

eloisefreya.wordpress.com/2021/09/11/an-open-letter-to-rosie-duffield/

[merrymouse]

Again, please explain how you would discern that somebody had illegally self ID’d.

[lazylinguist]

the spectre raised here and elsewhere is the man who frivolously claims to be a (trans) woman to get access to women's spaces. That's not what GRA reform is about and it would be illegal to falsely claim you are trans to access women's spaces, as alleged to commit further crimes.

No - the question of whether or not any individual male-bodied person accessing women's spaces genuinely believes they're a woman or not isn't the point. The point is that in many cases women may be just as uncomfortable sharing formerly single sex spaces with a 'genuine' transwoman as with a man claiming to be one. In any case - how are we to tell the difference? Wait and see if they assault someone?

[OldCrone]

the spectre raised here and elsewhere is the man who frivolously claims to be a (trans) woman to get access to women's spaces. That's not what GRA reform is about and it would be illegal to falsely claim you are trans to access women's spaces, as alleged to commit further crimes.

How could it be proved that someone has made a false claim to be transgender?

If self-ID is based on someone's subjective feelings about 'their gender', how could a claim they made about this subjective feeling be proven to be false? Surely you would have to be able to read their mind in order to discover this.

Please explain how we can discover whether someone has made a false claim @CatherinaJTV.

[ArtemesiaK]

Thank you once again to Rosie Duffield, a woman defending women in the face of an ideology that is akin to forcing everyone to believe that the sun revolves around the earth, the earth is flat and Jerusalem is at the centre......
Why do we have to go round and round explaining facts to people who want to deny science?....

[Waitwhat23]

[quote CatherinaJTV]this is a good dissection of the Duffield thread, I find.

eloisefreya.wordpress.com/2021/09/11/an-open-letter-to-rosie-duffield/[/quote]
As the writer has deliberately misused this quote from Duffield - 'I do not accept self-ID as a passport for male-bodied biological men to enter protected spaces for biological women' as an attack on transgender people. Sexual predators

[Waitwhat23]

Posted before I meant to. Sexual predators will take advantage of self ID. It is happening.

As the writer chooses to ignore this very real threat to women, her argument holds little weight.

[Sophoclesthefox]

Can’t believe you’d quote a 2015 paper from the Government Equalities Office written by and under a Tory government, Catherina

I thought it was utterly unethical to work with Tories and it makes women complicit?

I don’t believe you did answer my question. I haven’t seen it. Never mind, I’m a very patient person, so I don’t mind at all posting it again you can c&p your previous answer if you like.

You scolded women for inviting Tory MSPs to engage with them at the protest last week. Tory MPs led the proposed reform of the GRA in England and Wales in 2018, and evidence gathering is still ongoing, headed by Tories. Quite a number of Tory MPs are very supportive to trans people.

Do you oppose this work being done by Tories? May we scold you? If not, why not?