Transman wins lawsuit agains school board (Virginia) [Title edited by MNHQ at poster's request]

[SusannaM]

bit.ly/3sV3ib0

Not sure if this has already been posted (link is to The Insider). Transboy took a school board to court because he was excluded from boys bathrooms.

Gavin Grimm said he wants those passing anti-trans legislation to know: "Slowly and surely we're coming for all of them."

Grim indeed.

Well I was trying to comment that anyone who tried to turf a woman out of the ladies loos because they don’t ‘look like’ a woman (what the heck is a ‘butch’ woman anyway - women are women) can’t be looking too hard at the ‘non butch’ woman (but my power of language left me at that point).

Part of me has doubt as to how real this very recently mentioned issue actually is, and how much it is serving a useful purpose in trying to shame and bully women into giving up boundaries against males.

Its only recently mentioned because it is politically expedient for TRAs. There is some homophobia about although I agree with your relative.
But I had to point out that two articles about the same person who says she's had multiple incidents fail to mention her job role and report her as just a random butch lesbian. I find that to be fairly manipulative but it's PNews so

Well I was trying to comment that anyone who tried to turf a woman out of the ladies loos because they don’t ‘look like’ a woman (what the heck is a ‘butch’ woman anyway - women are women) can’t be looking too hard at the ‘non butch’ woman (but my power of language left me at that point).
Ah I see.
Also, although "butch" is often used as a pejorative, plenty of us are proud to be butch, so when I describe myself as such, I'm not putting myself down.

Well I was trying to comment that anyone who tried to turf a woman out of the ladies loos because they don’t ‘look like’ a woman (what the heck is a ‘butch’ woman anyway - women are women) can’t be looking too hard at the ‘non butch’ woman (but my power of language left me at that point)

Apart from the fact that none of what you said really.makes much sense, no one, from.what I gather you're trying to say, has ever (according to media anyway), tried to "turf out a woman" of a female.toilet, "butcj" or otherwise. A 6 foot beard wearing penis havers, however...

@FlyingOink

Well I was trying to comment that anyone who tried to turf a woman out of the ladies loos because they don’t ‘look like’ a woman (what the heck is a ‘butch’ woman anyway - women are women) can’t be looking too hard at the ‘non butch’ woman (but my power of language left me at that point). Ah I see. Also, although "butch" is often used as a pejorative, plenty of us are proud to be butch, so when I describe myself as such, I'm not putting myself down.

My sisters old GF would call herself ‘butch’ but I think she was actually quite girly in a lot of ways.

But then what’s ‘girly’ anyway? So I kind of - well I’m not sure what ‘butch’ actually means really. Unfeminine, rough n tough, assertive? Wasn’t really sure of the terminology (my sister would pull a face if I asked her) - or if ‘woman’ is just enough these days (expanding the boundaries etc etc etc).

You just don’t know what words to use these days, do you?

And there are people who declare (on social media) that non feminine women have been mistaken for men and asked to leave ladies loos. I’m sure it’s a crock though.

I get what you're saying, KittenKong and maybe it doesn't make much sense to use the word as an indication of gender non-conformity. It comes from the old butch/femme lesbian dynamic although most lesbians don't identify as either. A bit like how some gay men are "bears". It's just useful in-group language.

The title of this thread is wrong. The trans man didn’t win anything.

It was the ACLU who got the money. Gavin got nothing.

I don’t see what reason this case was brought and what good it did to the one person who the case was about.

The $1.3 million was for lawyers fees and expenses.

Gavin will realise eventually that for all the stress there was no win. No payment to make up for the years of having a life put on hold

I saw one video of a US school or mall or something where a butch looking girl was asked to leave but there were police involved and as usual no mention of the backstory prior to where the footage starts.
I've never been thrown out of a toilet but I have been challenged. So I do believe it happens but I don't think incidences have increased because of gender critical ideology.
There would need to be a baseline figure of incidents and a marked increase, with everyday homophobia discounted.
It's not nice being treated badly for being butch, but this is an attempt to turn those kinds of incidents into some kind of argument that men should be allowed in women's toilets.

Also, the transman referred to in the OP has definitely been used. Bit like the Guardian writer who wanted a motherless child. Useful prop for men who want things changed to suit themselves.

@KittenKong

And there are people who declare (on social media) that non feminine women have been mistaken for men and asked to leave ladies loos. I’m sure it’s a crock though.

Not necessarily. I was washing my hands on our local markses loos, a few years ago and a lady screamed at me, thinking I was a man. It was a filthy winter day, I was wearing a serious coat in a dark colour with a grey hat and had very short hair at the time.

You are kidding! I can imagine a double look maybe - but for the love of god, screaming at you. I hope you pointed out the error on her thinking...

@Bythemillpond

The title of this thread is wrong. The trans man didn’t win anything.

It was the ACLU who got the money. Gavin got nothing.

I don’t see what reason this case was brought and what good it did to the one person who the case was about.

The $1.3 million was for lawyers fees and expenses.

Gavin will realise eventually that for all the stress there was no win. No payment to make up for the years of having a life put on hold

Quite.

Also important to notice that the other children lost.

The title of this thread is wrong. The trans man didn’t win anything.

It was the ACLU who got the money. Gavin got nothing.

I'm the OP and have asked if MN will edit the title for accuracy. I hadn't realised the entirety of the win was going towards costs.

Thanks MN, that was quick, I should have mentioned the typo too 🤦

Well why the fuck didn't Gavin get anything???

Gavin is the one who felt discriminated against, has been the one whose face is in any reporting. Has according to article mh and other issues. And is very very young.

So why the fuck didn't Gavin get the money.

(Rhetorical question. Shameless fucking bastards.)

@KittenKong

You are kidding! I can imagine a double look maybe - but for the love of god, screaming at you. I hope you pointed out the error on her thinking...

Well, she definitely made me jump and I reassured her that I was all female, last time I checked.

They didn't give like even a % of it to Gavin?

That's really really bad. IMO.

This sort of thing is seen a fair bit in USA and coming here. Finding someone who is a good sympathetic candidate for X and use them to push an agenda.

Really unethical behaviour.

Come on ACLU where is your support for Gavin now?

And the fine was levied against the state schools dept I assume? They paid the $1m plus.

Fucking fucking awful.

So why the fuck didn't Gavin get the money

The fine was to cover legal fees not as compensation.

These groups make a load of money don’t they?

@GrandmaSteglitszch

They're definitely gendered spaces.

What does that mean?

You don't fit a sex-based stereotype? Big deal. Very many people don't.
Do you imagine that it means you are the opposite sex?

Of course toilets are gendered spaces. For example, changing tables are often just found in women's toilets, condom machines in men's, I have seen hair straighteners and machines dispensing hair brushes in the women's... these unequal arrangements are based on gender assumptions/expectations.

The obvious solution is to stop associating people with genders, then.

Sounds like a plan to be honest.

Just get rid of the terms man and woman, give people care based on their specific needs rather than lumping folks together into a specific body associated with a specific gender, throw the whole idea that men or women act or think a specific way away, etcetera.

Saves you a lot of bullshit if you don't have to wade through the sexism of having people insist you're a frail weak innocent easily fooled girl tricked into starting testosterone to avoid sexual harassment on your way to getting HRT because you want a deep voice and a hairy ass.

give people care based on their specific needs rather than lumping folks together into a specific body associated with a specific gender, throw the whole idea that men or women act or think a specific way away, etcetera.

Yet when GC folks fight for this they are told it's bigoted.

How would you suggest transition would happen for trans people who, for whatever reason, choose not to undergo medical/ surgical intervention, in this hypothetical world?

Of course toilets are gendered spaces. For example, changing tables are often just found in women's toilets, condom machines in men's, I have seen hair straighteners and machines dispensing hair brushes in the women's... these unequal arrangements are based on gender assumptions/expectations.

Very much so. So the obvious solution is to have stuff that's not body-related in both spaces. Because by definition, if it's gender thing that can be found in both sexes, it's not a sex thing.

What the solution is not, is to ignore the very real needs of female-bodied people dealing with the physical and social impact of having our bodies in a sexist society, and do away with all sex segregation just so a male with a woman gender identity has access to a hairbrush dispenser!

@Barheim

The obvious solution is to stop associating people with genders, then.

Sounds like a plan to be honest.

Just get rid of the terms man and woman, give people care based on their specific needs rather than lumping folks together into a specific body associated with a specific gender, throw the whole idea that men or women act or think a specific way away, etcetera.

Saves you a lot of bullshit if you don't have to wade through the sexism of having people insist you're a frail weak innocent easily fooled girl tricked into starting testosterone to avoid sexual harassment on your way to getting HRT because you want a deep voice and a hairy ass.

Just get rid of the terms man and woman, give people care based on their specific needs rather than lumping folks together into a specific body associated with a specific gender, throw the whole idea that men or women act or think a specific way away, etcetera.

Yep. And female people have needs that are nothing to do with gender that are not shared by males, that arise from both the abilities and limitations of our bodies, and the impact of having those bodies in a systemically sexist society.

So, ditch gender, but keep the female-specific provisions we currently have until society had evolved to the point we don't need them any more.

I'm good with that.