Transman wins lawsuit agains school board (Virginia) [Title edited by MNHQ at poster's request]

[SusannaM]

bit.ly/3sV3ib0

Not sure if this has already been posted (link is to The Insider). Transboy took a school board to court because he was excluded from boys bathrooms.

Gavin Grimm said he wants those passing anti-trans legislation to know: "Slowly and surely we're coming for all of them."

Grim indeed.

Sterilisation was a discrimination requirement that trans people fought to abolish.

So why are TRAs so keen to sterilise children? You do understand that puberty blockers followed by opposite sex hormones mean that a child never goes through puberty and will be sterile (with the genitals of a child), don't you?

So you agree that the problems that butch women are now facing are due to male people. Thanks for confirming that.

Trans people are not responsible for the violence that transphobes inflict on others.

Address people in your own circles.

It means a child who's gender is different from the one they were associated with at birth.

Nobody is 'associated with' a gender at birth. Their sex is observed and it is society which imposes gendered expectations on that child according to their sex.

But nobody has to conform to those gendered expectations. We are all free to have any appearance, behaviour, interests, according to our personality, even if those don't conform to the narrow ones expected by much of society. There is no necessity for sex and personality to be correlated in any way.

It's going backwards to say that a girl who likes things which are stereotypically associated with boys is somehow not a 'real' girl.

Girls and women can be as masculine, butch, 'boyish' as we want to. We're still female. Still women and girls.

@Radiatori

Bell's case is currently being used by anti-vaxx and anti-abortion activists

Is it? How?

Hey Barheim, Do you have links for this?

It's going backwards to say that a girl who likes things which are stereotypically associated with boys is somehow not a 'real' girl.

It sure is a good thing that trans people have repeated over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and OVER, that this has nothing to do with being trans.

@Barheim

So you agree that the problems that butch women are now facing are due to male people. Thanks for confirming that.

Trans people are not responsible for the violence that transphobes inflict on others.

Address people in your own circles.

Male people invading female spaces have, according to you, caused problems for some women.

In those links there were no accounts of women being violent towards other women. they were all about being 'challenged'. But how is a woman being challenged by another woman 'transphobia? And in the stories which had pictures of the women involved, I'm surprised anyone would challenge them. They all just look like ordinary women to me.

Women are not responsible for the behaviour of males. Whether that is males using female spaces or males being violent to other gender non-conforming males. This is nothing to do with women.

You need to talk to men about their violent and inappropriate behaviour.

@Barheim

It's going backwards to say that a girl who likes things which are stereotypically associated with boys is somehow not a 'real' girl.

It sure is a good thing that trans people have repeated over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and OVER, that this has nothing to do with being trans.

What is 'being trans' then?

Don't tell me what it's not. Tell me what it is.

I've never in my whole life seen anyone challenging, being nasty to, attacking etc a woman in the bogs over thinking they were a bloke.

I've seen plenty of blokes in the bogs in various situations and a blind eye being turned.

What's been lost is it being aok when a bloke is in the bogs and pissing people off is saying this is the ladies/ and if somewhere with bouncers security etc ask someone to get them out.

Gender non conforming women have been around for yonks. It's hardly unusual. The idea there's an epidemic of violence by women. Esp against someone they think is male.

I mean sure all sorts of things happen. But I'm not convinced on this at all.

@Barheim

Just like the rest of us then.

Ah yes Mumsnet gender nonconformity.

Sweatpants and a ponytail.

Can I ask where you got that rather peculiar sweeping imagery from?

How is a ponytail or tracksuit bottoms non conforming anyway?

Is this some kind of USA stereotype? Because I don't recognise it. I think there's some kind of thing that is supposed to be recognised but not sure what.

And what about the boys having to share school changing with someone with a female body? What about their discomfort?

Surely if ‘Butch’ women are being attacked in women’s spaces for looking like men, that further confirms how strongly people feel about maintaining safe single sex spaces that are for females? If everyone felt comfortable that single sex spaces were being properly used, they wouldn’t care how people looked?

Are they though.

I don't believe it. I've only seen anecdata.

Butch women look like women. Sorry they look female. Because they are.

I have seen so many times the insistence that gender presentation > sex.

That skirt long hair etc means that everyone thinks female and masculine clothes hair etc everyone thinks male.

I can believe a lot of male people view the world like that. Not really paying attention.

Women don't.

I mean yes women who are full on butch get shit. Who from? Oh look. Pretty much always men. Shocker.

The idea that styling obscures sex is just such rampant nonsense.

Getting back to the subject, I'm just shocked at how UCLA used Gavin. There's a really sad comment about how Gavin was totally abandoned as soon as they got the result they wanted.

I'm pretty sure this is the case that has been kicking about for donks - there were attempts to have it heard by the US Supreme Court, but it kept being relegated to lower courts, which looks like where it has finally been resolved.

I'm not sure it's the success hoped for - I think it would have had a lot of 'support' as a test case.

@Barheim

Just like the rest of us then.

Ah yes Mumsnet gender nonconformity.

Sweatpants and a ponytail.

I don't own sweatpants.

I have never had a ponytail.

@Barheim

Just like the rest of us then.

Ah yes Mumsnet gender nonconformity.

Sweatpants and a ponytail.

Where has this idea come from? Sweatpants is a very American term, we tend to call them tracksuit bottoms. And, although there are stereotypes associated with women wearing tracksuits, gender non-conformity isn't one of them.

@Barheim

What does gender non-conformity mean to you?

Laundry list of things, innit? Not just rejecting the current status quo of what men or women should be like (in terms of looks, behaviour, beliefs), but going directly against it.

Pretty broad of a question.

So when the suffragists and suffragettes were fighting for the vote, going 'directly against' what women were supposed to be like, I presume they were trans?

When women first started wearing trousers in the First World War as they took on jobs previously only held by males (and then fought to keep those jobs) thus going 'directly against' what women were supposed to do and look like, they were also trans?

When women started cutting their hair in the 1920s and strapping down their breasts for a more flat-chested look, were they trans because they were going 'directly against' what women were supposed to look like?

What is the difference, exactly, between 'rejecting the status quo' and going 'directly against it?'

And yes, stop telling us what gender identity isn't. Tell us what it is. When a child like Jazz Jennings stands up and says they've always been a girl because they liked the colour pink and dancing - I see gender stereotypes. Am I wrong?

Nobody can ever explain gender identity. We've been told it's not biological sex and it's not 'gendered behaviour'. It's an internal sense of being a woman or a man. However, nobody can ever explain what a 'man' or 'woman' is, or what that sense is supposed to feel like.

Please could you describe to me, what this internal sense of womanliness is, that all women and transwomen share. This internal sense is so important that entire laws must be rewritten to accommodate it - please, explain to us what it is. I am ready to listen, but no one from the non-GC side has been able to answer my questions, so I've ended up on the GC side. You accuse us of refusing to listen. The problem is, most of us have been listening and find the answers either wanting or non-existent.

I'm not sure what my gender identity is. How can I tell if I am a woman or man or non-binary or something else? What questions should I ask myself to find out my gender identity?

Notbad, referring to a point that you made up thread, that's my understanding as well. Basically in the final days of his administration Obama expanded sex based protections to simply include gender identity as well. This felt at the time like lobbing a grenade into a building as the doors close behind you. And I think on that basis what has followed was inevitable I.e. sex is no longer protected. Because the material reality of one's sex can be at odds with the subjective ideology of one's gender identity and therefore it is impossible to apply the same legal protection to both at the same time using the same instrument.

The judge in the Bell case explicitly excluded the possibility of it being used to attack Gillick competence in matters relating to contraception and abortion, so let’s clear that up out of the gate, barheim. If people are trying to use the case to pursue that objective, they cannot be successful.

And yes, I’m curious as to how, having fought against sterilisation being imposed on trans people, you would not be supportive of the Bell case, which seeks to prevent minors being sterilised without the full ability to comprehend and consent to this measure?

Gavin’s case makes me very sad. Again, I’m not clear how that is patronising, when we’re urged every day to “be kind”. “Being Kind” doesn’t imply blindly supporting people in destructive ideologies, sometimes kindness is in saying “no, this isn’t a good idea”.

@Barheim

It's almost as if there's a script. sad

There isn't one. Neurodiverse people are just significantly more likely to be LGBTQ+ than neurotypical people. In the autistic community, for instance, the percentage of people who are LGBTQ+ is measured between 15% for a general analysis to 43% of the women in a Dutch study, compared to ~4.5% of the American population.

Have studies been done on the percentage that fall under the T of LGBT though? It seems (just anecdotally as far as I know) that more neurodiverse people believe they are in the “wrong” body than in the NT community

It’s not anecdotal. Clinic data shows that between 20-25% of children presenting to gender clinics are ASD. And that’s those with a known diagnosis. These clinics don’t diagnose ASD.

But that’s not the same as neurodiverse people more likely to be “LGBTQ+”. And it’s a very recent phenomenon.

Yes, it seems that ND people as are likely as a NT person to be LGB but the T does seem to be higher in the ND community. I only know 2 Transgirls (I use the term as they are under 18) and both are not NT
It’s almost as if there is a reason for that!!

Also the steps to obtain a GRC in the UK do not require any treatment that would make a person infertile.
I am curious what or how Barheim would define trans then. Again, any chance of a positive description that we can all understand (if we're getting it wrong) rather than what a person is not? I'm willing to listen.