The look at me of pronouns

[Ritascornershop]

Recently I’ve had two interactions that have startled me. One was with legal aid (I’m in Canada) where the young lawyer rang me and said “Hello this is Thomas from xx, my practice is x and my pronouns are he/him.” Just in case I thought someone with a male voice and whose name was Thomas might like me, when speaking to him, to refer to him in the third person as she/her. I laughed and pointed out that as I was speaking directly to him, his pronouns wouldn’t be relevant.

The other interaction was after I’d written my member of parliament’s office asking for an answer on something I couldn’t get a Ministry to answer me on. 3 months later I finally got a reply suggesting I contact that Ministry 🙄 and signing off “Benjamin Lastname, he/him, Useless Twat, Your MP’s office”.

I replied telling him it was useless information that should not have taken 3 months to cough up, and I didn’t care what his pronouns were and I wasn’t going to proffer mine as doing so for women tended to increase sexism in professional interactions.

Is this as rampant in the UK? It just seems so unprofessional and so “look at me!” I’ve no interest in how they hope people refer to them when they’re not there, I just want answers to my questions that they are qualified to provide.

Its rife here in the UK too. I have to gag myself in case the words "take your pronouns and fuck off" accidentally fly out of my mouth.

@RocketPanda

Our point about star signs is they mean absolutely nothing. Most people think the time of year of your birth dictating your personality is utter tosh. Very like pronouns. Meaningless drivel.

Although I often think about making public an email sent from head office advising my particular office about our names. I come from an Irish speaking area of Ireland as do most of my colleagues and therefore our names are in Irish. The translation denotes my sex ( Mary Daughter of Smith for example). Apparently we should have English names that are easier to pronounce and not triggering to those who are gender diverse. This coming from a British company does not come across well at all.

God your company must be really culturally dim to ask that @rocketpanda. Not surprised one bit though.

@Shehasadiamondinthesky

Its rife here in the UK too. I have to gag myself in case the words "take your pronouns and fuck off" accidentally fly out of my mouth.

It’s a protected belief system surely?

proudally if in your social circle it’s usual to announce pronouns you should of course go ahead and do it, just as in sime social circles it’s normal to know where to sit a marchioness at dinner.

However, you are mistaken if you think it makes people in general feel more comfortable.

@ProudAlly

My company encourages us to add our preferred pronouns to our email signatures and when meeting new colleagues to say "My name is ProudAlly and my preferred pronouns are she / her / hers, what's your name?" Their explanation is that this will make others feel more comfortable in stating their preferred pronouns, if they want to. If that's true then I don't have a problem with it. I'm in favour of being inclusive.

@ProudAlly That's cool for them, but we don't make people introduce their sexuality when they first meet people, with good reason, and this should be no different. It's a highly personal issue and not even many gender questioning people would appreciate this kind of deceleration or probing. It's not as kind as what people think.

@ProudAlly

My company encourages us to add our preferred pronouns to our email signatures and when meeting new colleagues to say "My name is ProudAlly and my preferred pronouns are she / her / hers, what's your name?" Their explanation is that this will make others feel more comfortable in stating their preferred pronouns, if they want to. If that's true then I don't have a problem with it. I'm in favour of being inclusive.

But this is not inclusive. It's not inclusive of anyone who does not believe that regressive sex-based stereotypes are any other than a social construction which has the effect of oppressing females. It's what some very binary thinkers want, but that's not inclusivity.

@KittenKong It might be, but in reality, an honest response might make an employee a target - someone to watch. People who are very high up in a company with a lot of support might be able to have an open conversation about it, but in the current political climate, I would caution anyone who's on a low wage, on contracts, or in their 20s or 30s, to be careful how they words things and what they say. I would keep conversation it to a minimum unless really pressed.

They can still resist it, but even though their 'beliefs' are protected, some companies will want to stamp out any signs of rebellion. In extreme circumstances, an employee could be frozen out or be punished in other ways. If they're dismissed, not many people have the time, confidence, resources or energy to challenge unfair dismissal, and companies know that.

It’s a protected belief system surely?

Sex is a protected characteristic under the equalities act. Announcing of pronouns is, in my opinion at least (and I know I am not alone) indirect discrimination as it puts women at a disadvantage given evidence of changes (not positive for women) in how others interact with you when they know you are female.

@sonarl nope.

@merrymouse

proudally if in your social circle it’s usual to announce pronouns you should of course go ahead and do it, just as in sime social circles it’s normal to know where to sit a marchioness at dinner.

However, you are mistaken if you think it makes people in general feel more comfortable.

Not social circles. This is my company's position.

@Feelingmardy

It’s a protected belief system surely?

Sex is a protected characteristic under the equalities act. Announcing of pronouns is, in my opinion at least (and I know I am not alone) indirect discrimination as it puts women at a disadvantage given evidence of changes (not positive for women) in how others interact with you when they know you are female.

Oh I meant telling people to shove it where the sun doesn’t shine. It is a genuine belief I hold most dearly.

@NewlyGranny

We keep being told it's transphobic to ask someone their sex or gender, yet somehow it's OK to ask everyone for their pronouns. How does that square, or am I asking a daft question?

This.

I actually think you would have a discrimination case if asked for pronouns at an interview. Ds18 recently did an interview for a part-time job at uni. First question by the male-bodied, female named, they/them interviewer was "Would you like to share your pronouns?". He did and went with he/him or they/them. He threw in the they/them as "people like that hate straight men who are not trans".

However, by asking for pronouns, he was effectively asked what his gender is. In Ireland, where we live, the equal status act provides protection from discrimination on the grounds of gender, not sex. According to the Gender Recognition Act, there are 3 genders - male, female and transgender. By that logic, if his pronouns match his sex, he is male, if not, he is transgender. If he doesn't get the job, can they prove it wasn't on the basis of gender as they effectively asked him what gender he is?

He will know next week if he got the job.

I have only been asked once and I was prepared.
I said I hadn't made my mind up and, in the meantime, could they refer to me as she/he/they and her/ his/theirs.

It wasn't anything to do with my work and I probably wouldn't have said that if it was was.

It is totally shocking and what makes me even more shocked is the fact that it does seem to be female 'allies' who are leading the charge in this nonsense.

Good girl...

@ProudAlly

My company encourages us to add our preferred pronouns to our email signatures and when meeting new colleagues to say "My name is ProudAlly and my preferred pronouns are she / her / hers, what's your name?" Their explanation is that this will make others feel more comfortable in stating their preferred pronouns, if they want to. If that's true then I don't have a problem with it. I'm in favour of being inclusive.

Great, then you’ll be happy to be inclusive of the people made to feel uncomfortable by this too then, right? Or is inclusion only for some people?

@Naunet I said "if that's true". I don't know whether it is or not. Please read my post before commenting on it.

At present I do not include my pronouns on my email signature, nor do I introduce myself per my company's guidance.

I recently updated my LinkedIN profile and had to choose my pronouns.
There wasn't a way to opt out of this question, so I chose she/her as I am a woman.
I don't know how I feel about being forced to choose, but for those people on here saying that anyone who uses pronouns is attention seeking or wanky, well in this particular case, the decision was forced on me! I'm not trying to make a statement about who I am, I'm just looking for a job!

@birthdayboris

I recently updated my LinkedIN profile and had to choose my pronouns. There wasn't a way to opt out of this question, so I chose she/her as I am a woman. I don't know how I feel about being forced to choose, but for those people on here saying that anyone who uses pronouns is attention seeking or wanky, well in this particular case, the decision was forced on me! I'm not trying to make a statement about who I am, I'm just looking for a job!

That's odd. I just went in to check. It shouted at me about all the wonderful benefits to including them as soon as I logged in but it didn't make me add them when I updated my profile. Maybe it's location dependent?

I was recently looking at a study which found people's interaction with babies differs on whether the baby is dressed in pink or blue (ie thought to be a boy or a girl). It's no different in the workplace for a huge amount of women. If people perceive them as male they get respect, if they are perceive them as female they must first prove they should be in the running for earning respect.

[quote ProudAlly]@Naunet I said "if that's true". I don't know whether it is or not. Please read my post before commenting on it.

At present I do not include my pronouns on my email signature, nor do I introduce myself per my company's guidance.[/quote]
Dodging the question there. You said if it’s true, yes, which this thread clearly shows you is not the case. Some people are uncomfortable with it, so you’d be happy to be inclusive of them too, right?

It’s a simple question….

@Naunet "At present I do not include my pronouns on my email signature, nor do I introduce myself per my company's guidance"

[quote ProudAlly]@Naunet "At present I do not include my pronouns on my email signature, nor do I introduce myself per my company's guidance"[/quote]
Still avoiding the question, but ok….

@Feelingmardy

It’s a protected belief system surely?

Sex is a protected characteristic under the equalities act. Announcing of pronouns is, in my opinion at least (and I know I am not alone) indirect discrimination as it puts women at a disadvantage given evidence of changes (not positive for women) in how others interact with you when they know you are female.

@Feelingmardy That argument won't work though. Most people can tell your sex by looking at you or your name, so pronouns don't change that.

What is does do that is emphasise the fact you're a woman and that your name is a female name. It's basically like a message saying 'JUST IN CASE YOU DON'T KNOW I'M A WOMAN, I'M JUST LETTING YOU KNOW HERE! OK???' , and women should have the perfect right not to feel comfortable with that because of associated discrimination.

Because of the ideology that surrounds it, it's not simply a woman saying 'I'm she/her not because of my biology', but more like 'I'm a woman because I 'feel' like a woman - and I like baking, high heels and fashion generally'.

The woman has the right not to buy into those ideas, and to also not use use other wording that is part of that ideology, such as they/them or not using pronouns at all.

Sorry, meant to say -

'Because of the ideology that surrounds it, it's not simply a woman saying 'I'm she/her because of my biology', but instead, it's like a woman saying 'I'm a woman because I 'feel' like a woman - and I like baking, high heels and fashion generally'.

@birthdayboris

I recently updated my LinkedIN profile and had to choose my pronouns. There wasn't a way to opt out of this question, so I chose she/her as I am a woman. I don't know how I feel about being forced to choose, but for those people on here saying that anyone who uses pronouns is attention seeking or wanky, well in this particular case, the decision was forced on me! I'm not trying to make a statement about who I am, I'm just looking for a job!

You what @birthdayboris ??? It was compulsory???