The look at me of pronouns

[Ritascornershop]

Recently I’ve had two interactions that have startled me. One was with legal aid (I’m in Canada) where the young lawyer rang me and said “Hello this is Thomas from xx, my practice is x and my pronouns are he/him.” Just in case I thought someone with a male voice and whose name was Thomas might like me, when speaking to him, to refer to him in the third person as she/her. I laughed and pointed out that as I was speaking directly to him, his pronouns wouldn’t be relevant.

The other interaction was after I’d written my member of parliament’s office asking for an answer on something I couldn’t get a Ministry to answer me on. 3 months later I finally got a reply suggesting I contact that Ministry 🙄 and signing off “Benjamin Lastname, he/him, Useless Twat, Your MP’s office”.

I replied telling him it was useless information that should not have taken 3 months to cough up, and I didn’t care what his pronouns were and I wasn’t going to proffer mine as doing so for women tended to increase sexism in professional interactions.

Is this as rampant in the UK? It just seems so unprofessional and so “look at me!” I’ve no interest in how they hope people refer to them when they’re not there, I just want answers to my questions that they are qualified to provide.

@MrsFin

I'm Welsh!

Then please use it with abandon!!!

I would really love to know the result of that.

@KittenKong

In Scottish - so bit address me as:

Hen Kong fae Glasgae, if you please

@KittenKong

There you go - a new pronoun for you. Please use it....if you dare!

We keep being told it's transphobic to ask someone their sex or gender, yet somehow it's OK to ask everyone for their pronouns. How does that square, or am I asking a daft question?

[quote Fitt]This is the best response.

[/quote] I'm pretty much a lurker but I literally can't stop watching this. It's the funniest thing I've seen for a long long time, the cat knows

Well played, Fitt

Cats know...

@Ionlydomassiveones

It tells you that they are not critical thinkers or that they are being coerced by their woke captured organisation. They are insidious and a threat to women’s rights. Anybody with an ounce of integrity would not willingly use them.

Totally agree

I love cats 😻

Our diversity guidance suggests all meetings should start with introductions including pronouns all round.
Obviously nobody's read the guidance because it's yet to happen in a meeting I've been at. Even one led by HR.

Luckily all my colleagues know me. ‘Aye f* off ya bam’ would be my response.

One of my colleagues has put she/her/hers across her profile on Zoom. it irritates the hell out of me on meetings because why would her pronoun suddenly change once it becomes possessive?? It's like I'm suddenly back in a primary school grammar class! I wasn't about to refer to my colleague as she/her/his!

Saw it in the wild for the first time today. Depressing.

Think of it like Agadoo - an irritating ear worm that will drop out of fashion.

One of my friends (in her early thirties) has just come out as non binary.And my response was to shrug and say “I don’t give a shit. Makes no difference to me.” But apparently this is the wrong response and now she feels “unsafe” around me because I’m not validating her identity. I’m supposed to be going on a trip with her soon and I’m dreading it because she has made it clear she wants me to publicly state that her non binary identity is “valid” and that I respect it . She is also apparently plagued with anxiety that I don’t really believe in her identity (she knows that I’m gender critical). What on earth am I supposed to do? Apparently just using her pronouns isn’t enough (she hasn’t changed her pronouns to they: them, she feels more “comfortable” with she/ her). I’m supposed to now actually recite the mantra as an article of faith. I swear, I sometimes feel like thomas more confronted with Henry 8’s demands to sign the oath that Henry was the supreme head of the church!

I received a letter from someone at the BBC with their pronouns. I wrote a letter back expressing my concern at the impression that made on me and how their ideology had the potential to have an adverse impact on how they did their job.

Hmm. I’m pretty gender critical, but I don’t mind this. If I’m emailing back and forth with Alex McStranger, or Sandy, Chris etc OR an Asian name - for instance Harpreet is a male, Jaspreet is a female, but would you definitely have known that? Or an email from Wei or Xiang. Are you sure you know what gender they are? So sure that you are positive you won’t cause offence when you refer to “her” in a cc’d email?

You DON’T always know. Equally, does my fictional Xiang know whether the Sam she is referring to is a man or a woman?

So it might be slightly silly from a gender identity perspective (which is probably how many are using it), especially if your name is Manly McBrawny, but more broadly, it’s very useful. You might argue that you don’t NEED to know the sex or gender of the person on the other end of an email, but from a relationship-building perspective, it’s important.

I’m in favour.

@WeeBisom If she genuinely feels unsafe, I suggest she doesn't go on the trip......but we all know she probably will, because she doesn't feel unsafe. She probably feels insecurity that you have refused to fawn on her.

I would just tell her that you hope to continue to be her friend, that your understand she feels more comfortable using different pronouns, but you can't believe in things you don't believe in. It's like insisting that just because someone is planning to become a priest, you must now as their friend believe in God. You might be willing to use the title Vicar, but you should not feel pressured to also convert to Christianity so they can feel more validated and secure in their new identity.

So sure that you are positive you won’t cause offence when you refer to “her” in a cc’d email?

Why would it cause offence? I often receive letters/emails addressed to ‘Mr Smith’ because my first name is actually a male nickname. I just say haha no I’m named after my grandfather. It doesn’t offend.

That has nothing to do with why people are using pronouns.

@astoundedgoat

Hmm. I’m pretty gender critical, but I don’t mind this. If I’m emailing back and forth with Alex McStranger, or Sandy, Chris etc OR an Asian name - for instance Harpreet is a male, Jaspreet is a female, but would you definitely have known that? Or an email from Wei or Xiang. Are you sure you know what gender they are? So sure that you are positive you won’t cause offence when you refer to “her” in a cc’d email?

You DON’T always know. Equally, does my fictional Xiang know whether the Sam she is referring to is a man or a woman?

So it might be slightly silly from a gender identity perspective (which is probably how many are using it), especially if your name is Manly McBrawny, but more broadly, it’s very useful. You might argue that you don’t NEED to know the sex or gender of the person on the other end of an email, but from a relationship-building perspective, it’s important.

I’m in favour.

Have you read those articles about male/female colleague who swapped email addresses and learned a LOT about how their opposite-sex colleagues were treated?

[quote EarthSight]@WeeBisom If she genuinely feels unsafe, I suggest she doesn't go on the trip......but we all know she probably will, because she doesn't feel unsafe. She probably feels insecurity that you have refused to fawn on her.

I would just tell her that you hope to continue to be her friend, that your understand she feels more comfortable using different pronouns, but you can't believe in things you don't believe in. It's like insisting that just because someone is planning to become a priest, you must now as their friend believe in God. You might be willing to use the title Vicar, but you should not feel pressured to also convert to Christianity so they can feel more validated and secure in their new identity.[/quote]
That is the best explanation of how to handle the whole pronoun nonsense that I've ever come across, thank you :)

My preference is to be referred to by my name. If needed, I will add my job title. If pressed, I will use my title (Dr).

I have no intention of ever announcing my pronouns (or my ethnicity, age, sexuality or political stance) in a work email and hope more people realise this trend undermines the progress women have made in advancing women's rights.

@astoundedgoat

Hmm. I’m pretty gender critical, but I don’t mind this. If I’m emailing back and forth with Alex McStranger, or Sandy, Chris etc OR an Asian name - for instance Harpreet is a male, Jaspreet is a female, but would you definitely have known that? Or an email from Wei or Xiang. Are you sure you know what gender they are? So sure that you are positive you won’t cause offence when you refer to “her” in a cc’d email?

You DON’T always know. Equally, does my fictional Xiang know whether the Sam she is referring to is a man or a woman?

So it might be slightly silly from a gender identity perspective (which is probably how many are using it), especially if your name is Manly McBrawny, but more broadly, it’s very useful. You might argue that you don’t NEED to know the sex or gender of the person on the other end of an email, but from a relationship-building perspective, it’s important.

I’m in favour.

I would always avoid 'he' or 'she' when talking about somebody in their presence because it is rude.

If I made a mistake I would expect to be corrected, but I wouldn't expect somebody to be deeply offended. People have been making mistakes about people called Alex and Dr Smiths for a long time. It isn't a big deal.

I refused in work, I have a very obvious feminine name. Think Laura/Clare/Sophie.

When HR said why, I said because I don't want to, I find it frivolous and attention seeking for a woman with a very well known women's name to be shouting at the end of e-mails I'm a she/her. Look at me! They just said ok.

However the young lad in the office aged 20 thought it would be funny to put Tit/Twat as his. This went unnoticed for 2 weeks 😂

@astoundedgoat

Hmm. I’m pretty gender critical, but I don’t mind this. If I’m emailing back and forth with Alex McStranger, or Sandy, Chris etc OR an Asian name - for instance Harpreet is a male, Jaspreet is a female, but would you definitely have known that? Or an email from Wei or Xiang. Are you sure you know what gender they are? So sure that you are positive you won’t cause offence when you refer to “her” in a cc’d email?

You DON’T always know. Equally, does my fictional Xiang know whether the Sam she is referring to is a man or a woman?

So it might be slightly silly from a gender identity perspective (which is probably how many are using it), especially if your name is Manly McBrawny, but more broadly, it’s very useful. You might argue that you don’t NEED to know the sex or gender of the person on the other end of an email, but from a relationship-building perspective, it’s important.

I’m in favour.

Hmmmm.........you're gender critical are you???

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to see your previous posting history before I believe that.

Are you sure you know what gender they are?

Again, I'm going to need to see a long posting history here on Mumsnet before I believe you're gender critical after you said this.

Or an email from Wei or Xiang. Are you sure you know what gender they are? So sure that you are positive you won’t cause offence when you refer to “her” in a cc’d email?

Secondly, very few women here would loose sleep over the possibility they might offend someone in this particular instance. There is a magical thing called 'Google' these days. If I truly was in any doubt, I would do a quick search on it and just make my guess on that. There are some names that are used for both sexes, but most names aren't like that.

Used in the context of email signatures, is is not simply an indication of one's sex. It's far more complicated than simply saying 'hey I'm a woman, just letting you know my pronouns in case you don't know'. Using pronouns signals that you believe in a certain ideology about your own identity (unless one is truly uninformed about the matter). People should have the right to not be ok with that.

Even if it were that simply, no one should be coerced into emphasising their sex in this way,

You might argue that you don’t NEED to know the sex or gender of the person on the other end of an email, but from a relationship-building perspective, it’s important

In the vast majority of cases, it's not important at all, especially if it's communication over email. In real life, yes, I might want to know their sex in certain situations, but gender.......only a small minority of people are intent on making it important for absolutely everyone. I sympathise with them, but I'm not going to go along with things I don't feel comfortable with or don't believe in.

@DucksFlyTogether

I refused in work, I have a very obvious feminine name. Think Laura/Clare/Sophie.

When HR said why, I said because I don't want to, I find it frivolous and attention seeking for a woman with a very well known women's name to be shouting at the end of e-mails I'm a she/her. Look at me! They just said ok.

However the young lad in the office aged 20 thought it would be funny to put Tit/Twat as his. This went unnoticed for 2 weeks 😂

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

When HR said why, I said because I don't want to, I find it frivolous and attention seeking for a woman with a very well known women's name to be shouting at the end of e-mails I'm a she/her. Look at me! They just said ok.

Bloodyhell that was brave. She should not have asked you why as that put you in a difficult position. Also, your response could have landed you in hot water so the fact that she backed off with no further repercussions suggest your view might be the majority view at your company, or that HR doesn't like asking people to do it either. Can't imagine saying that response if you worked at somewhere like the BBC.