Do we have it anywhere on record that Stonewall does/does not support people to express their sexuality as exclusively homosexual?

[JustcameoutGC]

The expectation that lesbians accept partners with penises was one of the things that really made me start questioning gender identity politics more closely.

Exclusively homosexual lesbian spaces have disappeared as viewed to be transphobic. Just look on any lesbian dating apps and many of the users are male and be-penised. Some may be fine with this, but all of my lesbian friends are not, and they feel very disenfranchised, but equally they feel unable to speak out. Just look at what happened in Manchester.

I just can't wrap my head around how the prevoiusly stalwart and highly effective champion of gay rights has now essentially outlawed exclusive homosexuality.

Have they made any statements that make this stance clear? Have they actively said they do not support exclusively homosexual spaces?

They have publically defended their position (the Nancy Kelly interview) it is; anyone who does not publically agree with our (undefined and contradictory) magical thinking is a big meanie just like in Nazi germany.

Stonewall haven't just added the T, they have shat all over the LGB.

How do they sleep at night? All the work that those men and women did to have homosexuality accepted hasn't just been tossed aside, it's been discredited and denigrated.

Quite a few prominent gay men are now coming out and lifting the lid.

Yes, I saw a TRA ally raging that the message Ofcom had sent by leaving Stonewall was that it was now a controversial organisation politically.

Well yes. Slow hand clap. Well done.

This thread asked if Lesbians who wanted an app for lesbians but not for 'trans lesbians' should have one, and I said I totally thought that was their right.

Please don't mistake this as one of those purity spiral safe spaces. We are the people that allow that just because someone agrees that water is wet doesn't mean that we agree with all their assertions.

It is quite funny to see claims laid out at us that we are 'echo chambers' as so many of us have very differing views and yet.... we so often are and those doing it show their complete ignorance.

Er, whatever, yeah

The only thing that makes this forum an echo chamber is the perpetual ring of unanswered questions.

NotBadConsidering

Merriam-Webster Definition of
echo chamber
: a room with sound-reflecting walls used for producing hollow or echoing sound effects —often used figuratively
Living in a kind of echo chamber of their own opinions, they pay attention to information that fits their conclusions and ignore information that does not.

So, according to this, someone who ignores information that does not fit their conclusions would ignore the string of unanswered (unanswerable) question.

Not sure I know any long term poster that would ignore information given, argue and understand the nuance and limitations of that information. Take proposed information through to unexpected dimensions in their attempt to better understand the ramifications, yes. Lay concepts bare and rebuild them to find a way to make things workable, yes.

Ignore questions? no. Ignore information? no. Ignore reality? no.

This thread asked if Lesbians who wanted an app for lesbians but not for 'trans lesbians' should have one, and I said I totally thought that was their right.

Then you talked about how it could be possible in the future for a man to become a woman and a lesbian.

You are saying women having the right to organise without men on one hand, but fantasising about a time when that wouldn't be possible. Are you sure you are as enthusiastic for a male free dating app as you claim?

So you agree that lesbians should have spaces that are free of males however they identify. Yet, those places don't exist, shut down at every opportunity by the TRAs who cannot let women have anything for themselves. Where is your outrage at that? Where is your anger that these women have been abandoned by Stonewall? It is fucking outrageous, homophobic and misognistic.

I had thought that by acknowledging the rights of these women, there may be some hope that you would also acknowledge the damage that has been done to them by the current TRA tactics.

However, you are more concerned about defending the removal of women from public spaces for thinking wrong things.

It is now crystal clear you prioritise the feelings of males over the inalienable rights of these women.

I see you now.

''However, you are more concerned about defending the removal of women from public spaces for thinking wrong things.''

What the hell are you babbling about?

You support the removal of gay people from Pride demos, yes?
Both lesbians and gay men have been targeted by mobs.

''However, you are more concerned about defending the removal of women from public spaces for thinking wrong things.''

Referring back to how this thread started. The OP was this:

The expectation that lesbians accept partners with penises was one of the things that really made me start questioning gender identity politics more closely.

Exclusively homosexual lesbian spaces have disappeared as viewed to be transphobic. Just look on any lesbian dating apps and many of the users are male and be-penised. Some may be fine with this, but all of my lesbian friends are not, and they feel very disenfranchised, but equally they feel unable to speak out. Just look at what happened in Manchester.

I just can't wrap my head around how the prevoiusly stalwart and highly effective champion of gay rights has now essentially outlawed exclusive homosexuality.

Have they made any statements that make this stance clear? Have they actively said they do not support exclusively homosexual spaces?

ie. Justcameout has expressed concern that lesbian only spaces and services are being removed because these have become mixed sex and the very word 'lesbian' has been redefined by organisations such as Stonewall.

Bilinda's answer was :

'The expectation that lesbians accept partners with penises'

Who expects this? Not the vast majority of trans people. It's a bullshit myth put around by transphobes.

And Bilinda, you have continued to deny this is happening all the way through the thread. And to ignore requests to qualify just how you have the authority to speak for 'the vast majority' of trans people in light of not having any other evidence to support your claim.

Plus you have also stated that a gay man was 'asking for' the abuse he got being removed from a Pride event for wearing apparel that reflected his 'wrong think'. We can only assume that you would say the exact same thing about a lesbian being ejected for wearing the same.

Do you deny that women are being removed from public spaces for not accepting males with penises? Removed because the spaces do not exist, or by being banned for wrong think?

Do you deny that lesbians that are telling the world that this is happening, or just that you don't believe them, or that YOU feel that it is just not that important an issue to take any notice of (in which case will it be n+1 lesbians stating it is happening for you to take notice)?

You said

''However, you are more concerned about defending the removal of women from public spaces for thinking wrong things.''

And that refers to my agreement that the MALE LGB activist, there to cause trouble, was rightly removed by the gay, lesbian and trans Pride event, as he was promoting a trans hate group. Anyone turning up to Pride wearing t-shirts that are anti Gay, Lesbian or Trans should be made to leave.

''Do you deny that women are being removed from public spaces for not accepting males with penises? Removed because the spaces do not exist, or by being banned for wrong think?''

I don't deny it, apparently that is happening. Lesbians who only want born female Lesbians should have their spaces.

''And to ignore requests to qualify just how you have the authority to speak for 'the vast majority' of trans people in light of not having any other evidence to support your claim.''

I'm not speaking for them, I am reporting that I see no evidence that the majority of trans lesbians are demanding lesbians have sex with them, and have heard many prominent trans women (I follow about 6 on YouTube) all said this claim was ridiculous.

And that refers to my agreement that the MALE LGB activist, there to cause trouble, was rightly removed by the gay, lesbian and trans Pride event, as he was promoting a trans hate group. Anyone turning up to Pride wearing t-shirts that are anti Gay, Lesbian or Trans should be made to leave.

Bizarrely biased framing of a man wearing the logo of a registered charity for lesbian, gay and bisexual people, not a "trans hate group".

and have heard many prominent trans women (I follow about 6 on YouTube) all said this claim was ridiculous.

Oh well that must definitely be true then.

Lesbians who only want born female Lesbians should have their spaces.

Do you think all those "prominent trans women" agree with you that female people should occasionally be allowed their own stuff? You might be in for a shock.

I'm not speaking for them, I am reporting that I see no evidence that the majority of trans lesbians are demanding lesbians have sex with them, and have heard many prominent trans women (I follow about 6 on YouTube) all said this claim was ridiculous

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?

I think the views of lesbians, the demographic being victimised, are more relevant here.

It's interesting that you just needed to weigh up the competing claims of transwomen on social media and lesbians on social media, and you decided a sample of six transwomen were more convincing. Even though I'm sure the Lesbians at Ground Zero study with statistics was posted in this thread.

I wonder why that is.

If I find transwomen agreeing that lesbians are being persecuted, will you believe it then? Or do I need to find prominent lesbian youtubers?

And that refers to my agreement that the MALE LGB activist, there to cause trouble, was rightly removed by the gay, lesbian and trans Pride event, as he was promoting a trans hate group. Anyone turning up to Pride wearing t-shirts that are anti Gay, Lesbian or Trans should be made to leave.

Do you know what the letters L, G and B stand for?

A group that advocates for L, G & B is not a trans hate group. You have already conceded this (which is very big of you and super generous):

Lesbians who only want born female Lesbians should have their spaces.

and that is exactly what LGBA are advocating. Your disingenuousness is off the scale.

You have been provided with bucket loads of evidence on this thread of what is happening to lesbians and now gay men, their own testimonies, screen shots of what is being said and six a whole six tell you their claims are ridiculous and you believe them rather than the evidence right in front of your eyes.

We've got the message BilindaB, you have made your homophobia and misogyny crystal clear.

Or do I need to find prominent lesbian youtubers?

I don't think any amount of lesbian youtuber accounts will be as convincing for Bilinda as the assertions of MTF trans people.

and that is exactly what LGBA are advocating. Your disingenuousness is off the scale.

Ah, but when Bilinda "advocates" for it (really, really quietly in a Mumsnet thread where no transwoman will tell her off), she's doing it as a good person.

When LGB Alliance advocate for it in public, they're only doing it to cover for their hateful bigotry. And Bilinda will say so to impress those transwomen.

If I had a portfolio of minimum wage workers reporting health and safety violations at the factory where they worked, but six people from the multinational conglomerate's board said there had been no H&S violations, should I believe those six board members?

@BilindaB

''And to ignore requests to qualify just how you have the authority to speak for 'the vast majority' of trans people in light of not having any other evidence to support your claim.''

I'm not speaking for them, I am reporting that I see no evidence that the majority of trans lesbians are demanding lesbians have sex with them, and have heard many prominent trans women (I follow about 6 on YouTube) all said this claim was ridiculous.

And what evidence have those prominent transwomen provided? Any? Or have they got a vested interest in down playing the voices of lesbians that have been publicly stating this is happening? Do you not see any power imbalance in this equation?

And have these prominent males ever admitted that it even happens? How have they responded to the websites that have been set up with the evidence of it actually happening?

And finally, have they ever come out and said, look we see that this is happening and we call on those doing it to stop? Ever?

You have based your posts on these people's opinions because why? They are 'influencers' so they must be right?

@RedDogsBeg

You have been provided with bucket loads of evidence on this thread of what is happening to lesbians and now gay men, their own testimonies, screen shots of what is being said and six a whole six tell you their claims are ridiculous and you believe them rather than the evidence right in front of your eyes.

We've got the message BilindaB, you have made your homophobia and misogyny crystal clear.

Had enough of your nonsense, you're on my ignore list from now on