Do we have it anywhere on record that Stonewall does/does not support people to express their sexuality as exclusively homosexual?

[JustcameoutGC]

The expectation that lesbians accept partners with penises was one of the things that really made me start questioning gender identity politics more closely.

Exclusively homosexual lesbian spaces have disappeared as viewed to be transphobic. Just look on any lesbian dating apps and many of the users are male and be-penised. Some may be fine with this, but all of my lesbian friends are not, and they feel very disenfranchised, but equally they feel unable to speak out. Just look at what happened in Manchester.

I just can't wrap my head around how the prevoiusly stalwart and highly effective champion of gay rights has now essentially outlawed exclusive homosexuality.

Have they made any statements that make this stance clear? Have they actively said they do not support exclusively homosexual spaces?

And in what way can an adoptive mother become the biological mother of that child if they are not already that child’s biological mother?

Shall we have a gene swapping machine to enable that as well?

Not sure in general that ethics are many TRAs' strong point, to be honest.

That becomes apparent, doesn’t it?

Well yes, surely that would be a better use than turning men into women.

Bilinda

Women are fighting for their rights and those of their children to legal boundaries, equitable adult political representation, and the very concept of women as a sex class.

And you're countering it with a fictitious chromosome machine and gravy boats.

And yet the Merriam Webster dictionary definition of "woman" makes absolutely no mention of the fact that a woman' could also be male! Strange that using its own definition of woman as an adult human female it makes its own definition of transwoman a nonsense.

Just to repeat.... I cannot guarantee that the gravy boat floats!!

Do NOT transport back to this moment to give it a whirl unless you bring with you a big enough machine to reconfigure the gravy boat into a sea worthy boat!!!

The chromosome machine is a thought expriment - hypothetically if science keeps progressing in its ability to change men into women and vice versa, at what point would you agree that the person has changed sex? One response was worth considering - they wouldn't have a lifetime's experience of what it was like to be a biological woman, so that could discount a full transformation in someone's opinion.

I think this is worth addressing.

Sex is classification for reproductive purposes. So if a man could be transformed sufficiently to actually be impregnated by a man and give birth to viable offspring, then he would have changed sex. And if a woman could be transformed sufficiently to impregnate a woman, then she would have changed sex.

However, to a large extent, we talk about sex classification because people don't change sex. Therefore someone's sex tells you something about an individual's entire existence from birth.

There are many circumstances where sex (ie reproductive classification) isn't really what matters. Such as sport. We don't care about whether athletes impregnate or are impregnated. What we care about is the BODY classification. Do they have the male body, or female body?

In this sex-changing sci-fi scenario, it seems very likely that a MTF sex changer would not have the same body as someone who had been female from birth. So those males who really had changed sex would still not be eligible to compete with females. The classifications would have to be tightened up to separate them out, for exactly the same reasons we (should be) separating out current non-sex-changing MTFs.

And in other areas, you could figure out what to do with these MTF and FTM sex changers. It would be a very "tru-trans" sort of world - those who hadn't done this would absolutely not be "properly trans". There wouldn't be self ID. And we could accurately measure propensity to violence, etc. We'd have to figure out what to do.

In a world where people can change sex, current sex becomes a less-precise predictive tool. We'd need to decide whether birth sex or current sex matters more, and maybe balance them for different purposes. At the minute there's no need to balance, because they're always the same.

Edit: "So those males who really had changed sex would still not be eligible to compete with natal females"

@BilindaB

The chromosome machine is a thought expriment - hypothetically if science keeps progressing in its ability to change men into women and vice versa, at what point would you agree that the person has changed sex? One response was worth considering - they wouldn't have a lifetime's experience of what it was like to be a biological woman, so that could discount a full transformation in someone's opinion.

I think your mental health comment is offensive to people with actual mental health problems, perhaps you should apologise.

if science keeps progressing in its ability to change men into women and vice versa

At the moment science has no ability to change men into women and vice versa.

What we have is invasive medical treatments like major cosmetic surgery and partial replacement of a person's endocrine system with synthetic hormones for which their body is badly adapted (because they are the wrong hormones for the sex of their body).

Science has nothing which changes people's sex. So if it continues to 'progress' as it has done to date it will still have nothing.

You're living in a fantasy world Bilinda. This is science fiction.

Why not try to find why some people are so distressed by their sexed body and help them to come to terms with the body they have? Wouldn't this be easier than your sci-fi solution of chromosome swapping?

Necessary, that is so interesting! I guess since all cells have either xx or XY, this scenario would include a complete change on molecular level, including a bone marrow transplant in order for the “changed” blood to remain changed.

In addition to a complete rearranging of internal organs to exchange the male reproductive system for the female, the pelvis would also need to be reattached differently?

And I assume the immune system also adjusted in order to be able to sustain a pregnancy?

But yes, even all this would still not undo the changes of growing up and going through puberty as the opposite sex. The muscular structure would be to different on all levels. So sports would still need to be either natal sex or a new class.

In this sex-changing sci-fi scenario, it seems very likely that a MTF sex changer would not have the same body as someone who had been female from birth. So those males who really had changed sex would still not be eligible to compete with females. The classifications would have to be tightened up to separate them out, for exactly the same reasons we (should be) separating out current non-sex-changing MTFs.

I had a post like this typed out, almost word for word. Then I realised if this was a machine that atomised you and rebuilt you, then it would be intelligent enough to reform you in your new form as if you had always had those chromosomes/genes/development.

And then I also thought that if the machine could do that, they could also artificially modify a body to be enhanced. After all, we are talking about a machine that has endless possiblities here. We are also talking about being able to create hybrids where, for instance, a furry would not have to be in costume anymore. And if people wanted to be a unicorn that talked, they could. So, effectively, sports as we know them would have disappeared completely. Because who would be so old fashioned to watch a 100 m sprint of an unenhanced human when we could be watching an event with minotaurs?

And, anyone who did not have the 'lived experience'... well, if we have that chromosome machine .... we can easily implant memories to solve that issue.

So... which SF books and movies have I missed?

Yes, I vote for everyone to be talking unicorns who live on the moon.

I had a post like this typed out, almost word for word. Then I realised if this was a machine that atomised you and rebuilt you, then it would be intelligent enough to reform you in your new form as if you had always had those chromosomes/genes/development.

Well, at the point you can do that sort of body customisation, then yes, you could, in principle transform a male into a "typical female" so they could claim to fairly compete.

But then you could transform anything into anything. Without changing sex, even.

For normal competition, you'd have to have a "no body modification" classification, so any such FTM transformation would exclude you from that.

But you could have a "single-type" classification, like you do in car racing. Everyone drives exactly the same car. So you could permit MTF transformers to compete in a classification where everyone is using the same female body, whether or not they were originally male or female. THAT would finally be fair scenario, possibly.

I hadn't got as far as transplanting memories and training. That would be getting a bit weird... Post-competition interviews would get really confusing.

To be honest, this machine would make all sports competitions irrelevant. An athlete who has spent their entire life preparing could suddenly be beaten by an enhanced nobody (with the funds to upgrade their body).

If you can change sex, enhanced sports performance should be extraordinarily simple.

@FloralBunting

Dunno about anyone else, but I have new resolution not give attention to obstinate homophobes, no matter how many sci-fi thought experiments they want to create to dismiss homosexuality.

Good plan.

Meanwhile, I just want to repost this from CharlieParley upthread, as it goes to the heart of the original question behind this thread (I believe this was specifically Stonewall Scotland, but I see no reason to think Stonewall UK would have responded any differently):

In 2018, Stonewall were asked to support the following statement:

“Exclusive same sex attraction is a valid and real sexuality, there is absolutely nothing objectionable about being exclusively same sex attracted, and those who are should be able to live their sexuality free from any form of hate, discrimination, coercion or harassment, and are fully supported by our organisation as part of the LGBT community".

Stonewall's response:

"We cannot help you with that."

From
Female Only Provision:
A Women and Girls in Scotland Report
Page 55f.
^wgscotland.org.uk/reports/^

Not one of the LGBT groups the statement was mailed to responded positively to it. The Equality Network explicitly said they don’t recognise this definition of homosexual, only the version that is based on gender identity instead of sex.

There are no “LGBT” orgs which explicitly support people who are open about being exclusively same sex attracted, except for the LGBA. Which is precisely why the LGBA was formed. And yet time and time again, the LGBA is demonised as a “hate group” that was formed purely to attack trans people.

No. The attacks and the hate are all coming from the established “LGBT community” that prioritises gender identity over sex and has betrayed and abandoned those lesbians and gay men who are honest about their sexual orientation.

(Exclusively same sex attracted hypocrites like OJ who chant the mantras but would never dream of actually having sex with someone of the opposite sex, no matter how they present, are of course welcomed and represented by the Queer Establishment.)

After all these years, this is one of the things that still shocks me so much I can’t quite compute it. Lesbians and gay men being demonised and ostracised by Stonewall and all the other existing orgs that are supposed to be for them, simply for saying they’re exclusively same sex attracted.

It doesn’t get much more Upside Down than that.

Oooh, interesting perspective Necessary. I agree that you would need two no modification class (male and female) where obviously any MTF or FTM would be excluded.

But I wonder how the other modifications would work? Upgrade legs/arms/heart etc (by body section) or by total amount spent?

@Datun

Bilinda

Women are fighting for their rights and those of their children to legal boundaries, equitable adult political representation, and the very concept of women as a sex class.

And you're countering it with a fictitious chromosome machine and gravy boats.

😂😂

For normal competition, you'd have to have a "no body modification" classification, so any such FTM transformation would exclude you from that.

And how would you know? Ethics have already left the world by this point I would think. Certainly authenticity as we once knew it (before this current meaning change to mean how you really want to be perceived rather than how you actually are) would have left the earth.

Anyway, back to Do we have it anywhere on record that Stonewall does/does not support people to express their sexuality as exclusively homosexual?

I was thinking that too, Necessary. A male person who now magically could produce ova and be impregnated would still have the male skeletal frame he was born with, the greater heart/lung size, etc etc etc. But it really is so absurd we shouldn’t even be discussing it.

Not that I’m wanting to silence debate, just it’s a colossal waste of time and energy!

Thank you Talking

Good plan.

Meanwhile, I just want to repost this from CharlieParley upthread, as it goes to the heart of the original question behind this thread (I believe this was specifically Stonewall Scotland, but I see no reason to think Stonewall UK would have responded any differently):

In 2018, Stonewall were asked to support the following statement:

“Exclusive same sex attraction is a valid and real sexuality, there is absolutely nothing objectionable about being exclusively same sex attracted, and those who are should be able to live their sexuality free from any form of hate, discrimination, coercion or harassment, and are fully supported by our organisation as part of the LGBT community".

Stonewall's response:

"We cannot help you with that."

From
Female Only Provision:
A Women and Girls in Scotland Report
Page 55f.
^wgscotland.org.uk/reports/^

Not one of the LGBT groups the statement was mailed to responded positively to it. The Equality Network explicitly said they don’t recognise this definition of homosexual, only the version that is based on gender identity instead of sex.

There are no “LGBT” orgs which explicitly support people who are open about being exclusively same sex attracted, except for the LGBA. Which is precisely why the LGBA was formed. And yet time and time again, the LGBA is demonised as a “hate group” that was formed purely to attack trans people.

No. The attacks and the hate are all coming from the established “LGBT community” that prioritises gender identity over sex and has betrayed and abandoned those lesbians and gay men who are honest about their sexual orientation.

(Exclusively same sex attracted hypocrites like OJ who chant the mantras but would never dream of actually having sex with someone of the opposite sex, no matter how they present, are of course welcomed and represented by the Queer Establishment.)

After all these years, this is one of the things that still shocks me so much I can’t quite compute it. Lesbians and gay men being demonised and ostracised by Stonewall and all the other existing orgs that are supposed to be for them, simply for saying they’re exclusively same sex attracted.

It doesn’t get much more Upside Down than that.

A sign of just how unevolved we are on a societal level that numbers of people really think that human endeavour would be best applied to coming up with ever newer and more extreme ways to modify the body to make it align more closely with their psychological distress, illusion or fantasy, rather than putting all that energy into finding ways to heal the mind of its distress and illusion.

Imagine if all the funding and resources that are currently going into changing people’s bodies and destroying women’s rights were instead channelled into improving MH services, producing a culture of real support with therapists able to deliver services that were actually fit for purpose, and could enable people to live comfortably in their unmodified bodies, without having to try and shape the world to fit their illusion.

Imagine if all the funding and resources that are currently going into changing people’s bodies and destroying women’s rights were instead channelled into improving MH services, producing a culture of real support with therapists able to deliver services that were actually fit for purpose, and could enable people to live comfortably in their unmodified bodies, without having to try and shape the world to fit their illusion.

Now that is something worthy to think about and aspire too.

In 2018, Stonewall were asked to support the following statement:

“Exclusive same sex attraction is a valid and real sexuality, there is absolutely nothing objectionable about being exclusively same sex attracted, and those who are should be able to live their sexuality free from any form of hate, discrimination, coercion or harassment, and are fully supported by our organisation as part of the LGBT community".

Stonewall's response:

"We cannot help you with that."

From
Female Only Provision:
A Women and Girls in Scotland Report
Page 55f.
wgscotland.org.uk/reports/

Not one of the LGBT groups the statement was mailed to responded positively to it. The Equality Network explicitly said they don’t recognise this definition of homosexual, only the version that is based on gender identity instead of sex.

There are no “LGBT” orgs which explicitly support people who are open about being exclusively same sex attracted, except for the LGBA. Which is precisely why the LGBA was formed. And yet time and time again, the LGBA is demonised as a “hate group” that was formed purely to attack trans people.

No. The attacks and the hate are all coming from the established “LGBT community” that prioritises gender identity over sex and has betrayed and abandoned those lesbians and gay men who are honest about their sexual orientation.

(Exclusively same sex attracted hypocrites like OJ who chant the mantras but would never dream of actually having sex with someone of the opposite sex, no matter how they present, are of course welcomed and represented by the Queer Establishment.)

After all these years, this is one of the things that still shocks me so much I can’t quite compute it. Lesbians and gay men being demonised and ostracised by Stonewall and all the other existing orgs that are supposed to be for them, simply for saying they’re exclusively same sex attracted.

It doesn’t get much more Upside Down than that.

------

It still shocks me. Especially as the general public seem to have absolutely no idea.

Stonewall haven't just added the T, they have shat all over the LGB.

How do they sleep at night? All the work that those men and women did to have homosexuality accepted hasn't just been tossed aside, it's been discredited and denigrated.

Quite a few prominent gay men are now coming out and lifting the lid.

At some point, Stonewall will have to publicly defend their position.

@Datun

Bilinda

Women are fighting for their rights and those of their children to legal boundaries, equitable adult political representation, and the very concept of women as a sex class.

And you're countering it with a fictitious chromosome machine and gravy boats.

This thread asked if Lesbians who wanted an app for lesbians but not for 'trans lesbians' should have one, and I said I totally thought that was their right.

At some point, Stonewall will have to publicly defend their position.

As they are complicit, I don't see how they will ever be able to defend their position. I remember two posters tag teaming posts and threads during Lesbian week who also simply could not produce any evidence at all of 'their' community reaching out to defend the many lesbians on those threads detailing their experiences at attempts to coerce them to accept male partners.

Stonewall was posting only affirming posts, and not once acknowledging the many tweets and posts that lesbians were sending in return.

I guess, when you are so far entrenched it must be easy to dismiss these incidents as n+1, and therefore take the 'all my mates never discuss it with me so it doesn't happen' approach.

A bit like any other inconvenient statistic that needs to be ignored.