GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub

[cariadlet]

Sorry if there's already a thread on this. I've been following it on twitter all day but didn't spot anything on Mumsnet.

The Edinburgh News has got a report about it.
www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/inquiry-launched-into-row-over-transphobia-in-edinburgh-pub-3355594

The reporter quotes a lot of the TRA's tweets which they would probably love but I think the reporter's just given them enough rope to hang themselves.

I'm sure the average reader who hasn't followed the trans debate won't be impressed by someone who calls themselves an "AGP porn addict male" in their twitter bio.

@FindTheTruth

I don't think it's valid to select outlier individuals or very minority trans sub cultures as representative of trans women in general.

Except it's the lobby groups who GROUP everyone under ONE umbrella; transexuals with gender dysphoria being grouped with males who have fetishes is pretty anti-trans in itself. Women's groups like WPUK have transexual allies who hate being force teamed with people who are the opposite of them. Someone with gender dysphoria doesn't want to get their genitals out in the women's changing room.

That's a fair response, but GCs regularly define trans people by the 'worst' outliers. It reminds me of Islamophobes who try to prove their point by highlighting every bad thing any muslim does as if to say 'see what they're like?'

What is the definition, or rather that common characteristics, of Woman which are found in all trans and cis women but no other females, and in trans women but not other males? And why are those characteristics more relevant than body sex when it comes to social and legal rights and protections against sexism?

Yes, I note we haven't had an answer to these questions, without which this person's arguments have zero meaning.

@BilindaB

''And you cannot see the transphobic nature of your statements where you suggest that ‘passing’ males should have access to female single sex spaces but others shouldn’t.''

I never said that. Quote where I said that.

They consider themselves women - now picture a passing trans woman like Katy Montgomerie, not, say, Eddie Izzard (though some women do look like Eddie Izzard...) - that is to me, and the world, a woman, whatever sex they were born.

Did I misinterpret your post where you said this?

I think I did mention it at the time you posted that this is a very unfair discrimination you are applying when you say this.

That's a fair response, but GCs regularly define trans people by the 'worst' outliers.

See? That's you not using words properly again. Gender critical women regularly define transwomen as males. Not the 'worst outliers'. Males.

We segregate by sex. Which includes all males. A special subset of males don't get a pass just because they really, really want one.

BilindaB it seems that you are getting emotional when you mention being adopted and your mother being infertile. Believe me when I say that women here do understand the pain of infertility (many here struggle to conceive).

What many women are a baffled by is your apparent absence of empathy with women who have been raped, young girls who are body conscious, women in prisons and actually women who have had miscarriages, still births (close friend of mine) and lost their jobs due to motherhood.

You are telling us all that we are privileged, that we all need to accept exposed dicks (erect or not) close us when changing and that we are in no way different from males.

Where is your empathy?

The report is back on Edinburgh live

The updated report is now very “light touch”.

That's a fair response, but GCs regularly define trans people by the 'worst' outliers. It reminds me of Islamophobes who try to prove their point by highlighting every bad thing any muslim does as if to say 'see what they're like?'

No we object to males entering female safe spaces and when confronted by people stating that transwomen are different from other males, we produce evidence to show that they behave in exactly the same way as other males. There is no logic in saying males who identify as women are not as dangerous to females as other males, when criminal statistics prove this is demonstrably false.

''And you cannot see the transphobic nature of your statements where you suggest that ‘passing’ males should have access to female single sex spaces but others shouldn’t.''

As you quoted, I said nothing about passing trans women should have access to women's spaces as opposed to those who don't pass.

Though it's a fact that passing trans DO access women's (or men's if they're a trans man) spaces all the time and have been for decades.

Sorry what do you mean @Viewfromtheisland, I might have missed something earlier.

Though it's a fact that passing trans DO access women's (or men's if they're a trans man) spaces all the time and have been for decades.

Claiming transwomen are violating women's boundaries by stealth isn't really helping your argument.

That's a fair response, but GCs regularly define trans people by the 'worst' outliers. It reminds me of Islamophobes who try to prove their point by highlighting every bad thing any muslim does as if to say 'see what they're like?'

The point is that for safeguarding women and children, those outliers are those that need to be pointed out and considered.

Also, how many females are you happy to have lose a position set aside to influence policy to be sure females are fully represented? How many females are you happy to lose a prestigious award, like the one Bunce won or Jenner won, when those awards were set up to encourage females. Females who have been subject to sexist discrimination since birth. (And I can see that discrimination still happening with my teen today).

How many females are you happy to lose representation to males who have benefited from being male for speaking positions or in panels? Like Munroe Bergdorf who told lesbians they shouldn’t protest on the sex based themes they wanted to, who then speaks as a woman at events. Or the 50:50 parliamentary panel that had two males included to encourage females to join the ranks of MPs?

How many females futures are you happy to sacrifice for those you might consider ‘outliers’, because they are all outliers in some description.

The number of transwomen with dysphoria is smaller than the other groups so I think the comments are fair

No we object to males entering female safe spaces and when confronted by people stating that transwomen are different from other males, we produce evidence to show that they behave in exactly the same way as other males.

Exactly. Those "outliers" are only produced when people state there is no risk to women as there has never been an incident in a toilet/changing room/hospital ward etc where an MTF trans person has assaulted a woman.

It isn't true, and until someone can provide convincing evidence that they don't, it's reasonable to assume that a male member of a group needing only a self definition that they are a "woman" would pose the same statistical risk as any other group of males.

Blame Stonewall for (wanting the cash) including cross dressing and all the rest under the trans umbrella and demeaning access to single sex spaces for any man and his dog who utter the magic words

@Datun

That's a fair response, but GCs regularly define trans people by the 'worst' outliers.

See? That's you not using words properly again. Gender critical women regularly define transwomen as males. Not the 'worst outliers'. Males.

We segregate by sex. Which includes all males. A special subset of males don't get a pass just because they really, really want one.

Have you a response to this, BilindaB?

You seem to be under the same misapprehension that many transactivists hold, that this is because we are bigoted against people who transition. We are not. We simply believe that males are not women and shouldn’t be in women’s spaces.

Do you accept that this is a valid viewpoint and that we are not bigots for wanting single-sex spaces for women, in situations where women need them?

As I said, I don't think changing gender should be recognised without a doctor, or specially trained medical expert interview, perhaps many times, before agreeing or disagreeing it should go ahead. This is in large part to stop those who might do it for various nefarious reasons.

But we are told we are horribly transphobic for even daring to imagine there might be "nefarious reasons". This conversation is silenced because people don't want to acknowledge it. Go and say that on a TRA forum and see what response you get. It will be more than a few mild ad hominems.

So does that mean you think males without this "recognition" should use male single sex spaces?

That's a fair response, but GCs regularly define trans people by the 'worst' outliers.

Well that's not true is it. There's lots of perfectly lovely transwomen out there. We're not defining them as the worst outliers. What a horribly transpohobic thing to think.

Transwomen are defined by their biology. There's no escaping that. And male pattern violence does not reduce when a male identifies as a female. Some males do present a risk to females. Not all males obviously. But it's not possible to tell which males do and which ones don't. Women shouldn't be put at risk through allowing males into female spaces.

@BilindaB

As I said, I don't think changing gender should be recognised without a doctor, or specially trained medical expert interview, perhaps many times, before agreeing or disagreeing it should go ahead. This is in large part to stop those who might do it for various nefarious reasons.

It's impossible for that to work in practice. No one is going to go up to a transwomen and demand to see their medical exemption certificate.

But just as importantly, is it really that difficult for you to understand that women don't want any man in there.

You are basing entry purely on the person who is demanding it.

What about the women who don't want it?

Does any part of you consider them human enough to want their own sex segregated space? To be able to make up their own minds, and have their own decisions? Or are they always subject to the whims of the male sex?

Women want sex segregation for all sorts of reasons. Many of which are because they have already suffered at the hands of men. And you're saying it's up to those same men to decide whether or not those women get to decide on their own spaces.

The answer is no.

You seem to be under the same misapprehension that many transactivists hold, that this is because we are bigoted against people who transition. We are not. We simply believe that males are not women and shouldn’t be in women’s spaces.

Do you accept that this is a valid viewpoint and that we are not bigots for wanting single-sex spaces for women, in situations where women need them?

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Holding that view is not bigoted. It's a valid viewpoint that I do not share. I have a dear old friend who is gender critical. We disagree on this issue obviously. I don't think she's a bigot.

But there is much bigotry of other kinds aimed at trans people all the time from the gender critical camp. And vice versa. Partly because at this stage it's a war. And I wish it wasn't. I wish both sides could negotiate and maybe come to some agreements that aren't there presently. I'm not holding my breath, but I'd like to seem more efforts at civil discourse rather than abuse and threats.

But just as importantly, is it really that difficult for you to understand that women don't want any man in there.

Apparently it is.

@BilindaB

You seem to be under the same misapprehension that many transactivists hold, that this is because we are bigoted against people who transition. We are not. We simply believe that males are not women and shouldn’t be in women’s spaces.

Do you accept that this is a valid viewpoint and that we are not bigots for wanting single-sex spaces for women, in situations where women need them?

---------

Holding that view is not bigoted. It's a valid viewpoint that I do not share. I have a dear old friend who is gender critical. We disagree on this issue obviously. I don't think she's a bigot.

But there is much bigotry of other kinds aimed at trans people all the time from the gender critical camp. And vice versa. Partly because at this stage it's a war. And I wish it wasn't. I wish both sides could negotiate and maybe come to some agreements that aren't there presently. I'm not holding my breath, but I'd like to seem more efforts at civil discourse rather than abuse and threats.

Women and children's safety isn't negotiable, sorry.

The answer you are looking for is a third space. It's always been the solution. Always.

But guess what, it's constantly rejected. Why? Because it doesn't validate the males in question.

I know some very nice transwomen who use the gents. They completely agree with sex segregation.

Who are you imagining doesn't agree with it? What sort of person is that? Why would you argue on their behalf?

@Ereshkigalangcleg the original report disappeared, as it did from the evening news. It is now back, although edited - no names mentioned this time.

Edinburgh live is our on line local version of the daily record