GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub

[cariadlet]

Sorry if there's already a thread on this. I've been following it on twitter all day but didn't spot anything on Mumsnet.

The Edinburgh News has got a report about it.
www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/inquiry-launched-into-row-over-transphobia-in-edinburgh-pub-3355594

The reporter quotes a lot of the TRA's tweets which they would probably love but I think the reporter's just given them enough rope to hang themselves.

I'm sure the average reader who hasn't followed the trans debate won't be impressed by someone who calls themselves an "AGP porn addict male" in their twitter bio.

Really sorry for what happened to you Missing

Bilinda I for one think the premise of women having privilege over TW is flawed and not just the pregnancy example (although to lead with that in your initial statement and in the detail you did without thinking it through is quite incredible).

When you consider that many TW are biological males who have experienced years of living as a man before transitioning later in life (and just socially, many wont have made any physical moderations) they have actually benefited from male privilege most of their life.

Bilinda
Have you got a definition of woman yet?
Words are meaningless without definition

''And you cannot see the transphobic nature of your statements where you suggest that ‘passing’ males should have access to female single sex spaces but others shouldn’t.''

I never said that. Quote where I said that.

@WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld

Bilinda Have you got a definition of woman yet? Words are meaningless without definition

Yes, thanks for waiting.

I'd use whatever the dictionary has now, and imagine soon that there will be an added

1. Someone born male who has transitioned to being a woman.

2. Someone born male who has transitioned to being a woman

The definition of the word woman cant have the word women as the definition!

Jibber jabber.

2. Someone born male who has transitioned to being a woman.

What is a woman? What are they transitioning to?

You haven't answered the question. What should be the word for a human born into the sex class that can produce large gametes, as opposed to the one which can produce small gametes?

missinglesbianspaces, I am so sorry for what you went through.

Was this the withdrawal you’re referring to, bilinda?

“Ok, that's a fair point, I hadn't thought of it like that. Maybe some trans women feel one way about this, and others differently, so I won't speak for them on this issue”

Because…well, that’s not much of a retraction, is it? The issue users have here is not that you’re speaking for trans people, but that you demonstrated a complete lack of empathy towards infertile women by framing an mtf trans persons inability to get pregnant as lacking a “privilege” that women have.

It’s the lack of empathy towards women that we’re highlighting. The fact that you can just skim past posts and posts of women telling you that even if it were a “privilege”, which it frequently is not, many women don’t have that “privilege”, and it is a source of great pain. Your reaction of dismissing us as “bananas” just further highlights it. I’d have thought a feminist like yourself would be alert to the misogynistic notion of dismissing women’s concerns as madness.

I know you won’t understand my point, but hey, I’m an optimist so I’ll keep on trying.

@Datun

2. Someone born male who has transitioned to being a woman

The definition of the word woman cant have the word women as the definition!

Jibber jabber.

boat noun 1. a small vessel for travelling over water, propelled by oars, sails, or an engine. "a fishing boat" 2. a serving dish in the shape of a boat. "a gravy boat"

Oh dear. The bits in quotes are an example of the definition given not the definition itself.

Are you new to dictionaries?

@BilindaB

Do you believe female people (of any gender) should be allowed female-only spaces and female-only social activities, or do you believe preventing male distress is more important?

I'd use whatever the dictionary has now, and imagine soon that there will be an added

2. Someone born male who has transitioned to being a woman.

And what does "transitioned to being a woman" mean? They haven't become female, so definition 1 doesn't apply. So it's something else. But you haven't defined it.

And even if we do ever pin down what definition 2 means...

There's no overlap. What do those 2 groups have in common?

This is not like "mother" where 99% of those who fall under meaning 1 (biological mother) also have meaning 2 (primary female carer) apply to them. The dual meaning of the word is productive because 99% of the time both meanings apply.

What's the reason for trying 2 squeeze these two totally disjoint groups under 1 word?

It's like redefining "table" as

1. An item of furniture with a flat top surface raised above the ground, usually on one or more legs
2. headphones with 'table' written on them.

You could certainly do that, but why? You can no longer make any useful statements about tables. You'd have to start saying stupid things like "remember not all tables have legs!". And "but some tables are good for listening to music!".

This would benefit no-one. Apart from headphone manufacturers wanting to get into Which Table magazine. But just because they want it isn't a good idea for everyone else to go along with it.

(And then you'd have the debates about whether What Hi-Fi did table reviews, and whether they were table-inclusive. It would be insane. Yet strangely familiar... )

@Sophoclesthefox

missinglesbianspaces, I am so sorry for what you went through.

Was this the withdrawal you’re referring to, bilinda?

“Ok, that's a fair point, I hadn't thought of it like that. Maybe some trans women feel one way about this, and others differently, so I won't speak for them on this issue”

Because…well, that’s not much of a retraction, is it? The issue users have here is not that you’re speaking for trans people, but that you demonstrated a complete lack of empathy towards infertile women by framing an mtf trans persons inability to get pregnant as lacking a “privilege” that women have.

It’s the lack of empathy towards women that we’re highlighting. The fact that you can just skim past posts and posts of women telling you that even if it were a “privilege”, which it frequently is not, many women don’t have that “privilege”, and it is a source of great pain. Your reaction of dismissing us as “bananas” just further highlights it. I’d have thought a feminist like yourself would be alert to the misogynistic notion of dismissing women’s concerns as madness.

I know you won’t understand my point, but hey, I’m an optimist so I’ll keep on trying.

As I've said, I'm adopted, because my mother was infertile. It is an issue at the very core of my being and life story, I love my mother very much and have always strongly empathized with her on the issue. If I seemed flippant or thoughtless for any reason, I apologise.

I don't think it's valid to select outlier individuals or very minority trans sub cultures as representative of trans women in general.

Except it's the lobby groups who GROUP everyone under ONE umbrella; transexuals with gender dysphoria being grouped with males who have fetishes is pretty anti-trans in itself. Women's groups like WPUK have transexual allies who hate being force teamed with people who are the opposite of them. Someone with gender dysphoria doesn't want to get their genitals out in the women's changing room.

@Datun

Oh dear. The bits in quotes are an example of the definition given not the definition itself.

Are you new to dictionaries?

a serving dish in the shape of a boat.

It's not in quotes.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

How many derogatory things have been said about me? You just added several more.

a serving dish in the shape of a boat.

It's not in quotes.

Just under the definition of the word boat Bilinda.

Seriously? Dictionaries don't define words by using the words as their own definition. They define the word then use it in context, as an example.

A gravy boat isn't a boat. Its a jug shaped like a small vessel for travelling over water, propelled by oars, sails, or an engine. Without the definition of boat, a gravy boat cant be defined.

No apologies for mental health slurs then, eh?

There is no hope for this thread any more. Completely, hopelessly derailed. Slow hand clap.

Here's a definition I have used before, demonstrating that words need to mean things:

CAT

1. Felis catus

1. Dogs (what's that?) which use a flap in the door

1. Rabbits which use a litter tray

It's a great definition, no?

A gravy boat isn't a boat. Its a jug shaped like a small vessel for travelling over water, propelled by oars, sails, or an engine. Without the definition of boat, a gravy boat cant be defined.

This is a perfect description and a good analogy.

If I seemed flippant or thoughtless for any reason, I apologise.

Are you unable to imagine why saying pregnancy is a female privilege might be callous, ignorant and insensitive, rather than "flippant"?

a serving dish in the shape of a boat.

in the shape of, ie not actually the previous definition but referring to it in some way.

It is a serving dish, it refers in some way to a boat. It is not interchangeable with the first definition as anyone trying to use one for the other will quickly find.
Compare and contrast with

transitioned to being a woman.

Is/has become the previous definition. Was a man, is now a woman. Which if the previous definition is anything at all to do with sex, is not possible.

So your comparison fails.

What is the definition, or rather that common characteristics, of Woman which are found in all trans and cis women but no other females, and in trans women but not other males? And why are those characteristics more relevant than body sex when it comes to social and legal rights and protections against sexism?