GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub

[cariadlet]

Sorry if there's already a thread on this. I've been following it on twitter all day but didn't spot anything on Mumsnet.

The Edinburgh News has got a report about it.
www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/inquiry-launched-into-row-over-transphobia-in-edinburgh-pub-3355594

The reporter quotes a lot of the TRA's tweets which they would probably love but I think the reporter's just given them enough rope to hang themselves.

I'm sure the average reader who hasn't followed the trans debate won't be impressed by someone who calls themselves an "AGP porn addict male" in their twitter bio.

@Helmetbymidnight

White women are a subset of women too.

The answer to 'what is a woman' is not 'a woman has sub-sets' or 'white women are a subset.'

Try again, Bilinda.

The question is not - 'name some subsets of women' - but 'what is a woman?'

I'm sure someone who can name the subsets of something can give a clear and easy definition of that something.

Quite.

What is the one single thing every single woman on the planet has in common, regardless of diversity of every other single characteristic?

@Helmetbymidnight

White women are a subset of women too.

The answer to 'what is a woman' is not 'a woman has sub-sets' or 'white women are a subset.'

Try again, Bilinda.

The question is not - 'name some subsets of women' - but 'what is a woman?'

I'm sure someone who can name the subsets of something can give a clear and easy definition of that something.

It's a lost cause. We've had many visitors to the board who have answered this question already.

Q: what is a woman?
A: a woman is someone who identifies as a woman.

They are happy to say this. They think this is a sufficient answer. This is why we get absolutely nowhere.

@BilindaB

Look, people trawling through Meb's twitter for things to report. To get her banned, as revenge. It's pathetic.

Unlike the TRAs and their allies who trawl through GC Twitter accounts looking for things to report them for to get them banned and calling the Police for good measure you mean?

Ah that extra special trans equality, do as we say not as we do, we can do what the fuck we like.

Antisemitic posts? I missed that. Nice!

And antisemitism is defended why? My best friend’s family was decimated in nazi Germany and is scattered across the world. I don’t think antisemitism is defensible.

You ever gonna address that bullshit 3,000 claim @ BilindaB?

Regarding the idea of sets and subsets, I think it could be argued that there are subsets within the set “women”. You could categorize women into subsets with different eye colour, for example.

But those subsets have to have an overarching category to begin with, which requires that we have a clear description of the category “women”.

I would argue that blue-eyed women and brown-eyed women are all subsets of the overarching category “women”. We all understand what a woman is as sex is a concept we have all grown up with.

But if you try to include some men within your category “women” then the category “women” becomes meaningless as it has always referred to a sex category, of which there were two versions: women and men.

How exactly are you moving “men” into the category “women” is the question. What makes those men “women”? In what way are they different from other men? Unless you can explain how those men are women, then you have rendered the category “women” meaningless.

And regarding the matter of employment, I don’t doubt some trans people have difficulty finding jobs. Others, however, have benefited from male privilege for many years, then transitioned late and are thus ultra privileged when compared with women. And I was interested to see a comment on the RollOnFriday article linked here recently. It stated that there were some organisations and professions where trans people were over represented, and that some of those organisations were very powerful. I will append a screenshot of the comment.

BilindaB

Will you listen to your sexism!

If you want black women to be a subset of women and white women and male women, then you must define the set.

And the sexism will be absolutely off the scale when you attempt it.

Try it.

@AnyOldPrion

I would argue that blue-eyed women and brown-eyed women are all subsets of the overarching category “women”. We all understand what a woman is as sex is a concept we have all grown up with.

But if you try to include some men within your category “women” then the category “women” becomes meaningless as it has always referred to a sex category, of which there were two versions: women and men.

How exactly are you moving “men” into the category “women” is the question. What makes those men “women”? In what way are they different from other men? Unless you can explain how those men are women, then you have rendered the category “women” meaningless.

Very well said.

And also, there are subsets of everything. My checked double duvet exists in the subset of "duvets". So the fuck what?

Except you've put it more eloquently than I have, and less about duvets.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I do wonder if the people who are happy to class themselves as privileged cis women and say we should open up women's spaces to (what they see as) vulnerable and needy males are getting some sort of subconscious comfort from feeling that they are privileged and powerful over this subset of males, a reversal of the usual dynamic.

That's an interesting theory.

It's taken me a while to articulate it, but I've felt that the conversation/dynamic is very similar to a dynamic I've seen in my private/social life especially with teenagers and younger adults, where a non-confirming male person is sort of "adopted" by a female best friend or group of friends who are quite protective of them. They have this idea that their male friend in turn has more sympathy/respect for them than the "typical" males. Meanwhile, the male in question doesn't actually feel honoured by his inclusion and thankful to the females, he just feels entitled to it in the typical male socialised way.

It usually ends up blowing up when he does something typically male that shows he is not in fact "different from the other boys" at all.

@Blibbyblobby

I do wonder if the people who are happy to class themselves as privileged cis women and say we should open up women's spaces to (what they see as) vulnerable and needy males are getting some sort of subconscious comfort from feeling that they are privileged and powerful over this subset of males, a reversal of the usual dynamic.

That's a really interesting idea @Blibbyblobby. Maybe like those comfortably off people who intern at charities? Because few enough ordinary ppl can afford to work at these rates. Such women - and men - would be insulated from the reality of shared toilets, prisons etc. And as you say there's a bit of role reversal going on for the women.

I feel privileged to see through the bogus claims of gender ideology.

That is true privilege.

Indeed. We are truly blessed and I thank providence every day for giving me the ability to think critically.

It usually ends up blowing up when he does something typically male that shows he is not in fact "different from the other boys" at all.

(**CoughLilyMadiganCough….)

Yes I agree blibby.

I used to feel like that about gay men. Now I realise they're just.... men. Some are fantastic feminist allies and some treat women with sexist disdain. Two things made me realise that. One, being groped by a gay friend and two, the arrogance and entitlement of some high profile gay men who think that equality means a poor woman should gestate a child for them, ideally on the NHS.

It's taken me a while to articulate it, but I've felt that the conversation/dynamic is very similar to a dynamic I've seen in my private/social life especially with teenagers and younger adults, where a non-confirming male person is sort of "adopted" by a female best friend or group of friends who are quite protective of them. They have this idea that their male friend in turn has more sympathy/respect for them than the "typical" males. Meanwhile, the male in question doesn't actually feel honoured by his inclusion and thankful to the females, he just feels entitled to it in the typical male socialised way

YY, I relate to this. It's always been a dynamic I think, why women hung out in gay clubs with their gay male friends in the 90s. Me included. I cringe a bit now as I was probably intruding on gay men's space to some extent, but my gay male friends did invite me, so I thought it was fine. I'm not sure I would now.

I am continually in awe of the posters here who are patiently explaining facts for the millionth time, in the face of sometimes really quite strange arguments. Particularly in this thread CharleyParley - thank you!

Society really shouldn't be legislating for feelings - like some pps who feel that men can be women just because they feel like it. Just no. No thank you. Women are entitled to services and places that are single sex. Just that. Single SEX!

My pregnancy was awful.

It was nowhere near as bad as some women have, but the placenta started to detach half way through, my child was overdue and I needed to be induced and an episiotomy because the doctor told me that due to my age and the fact she was overdue there was a high chance I’d have a stillbirth if they didn’t intervene.

I was very close to needing a blood transfusion because I lost so much blood.

I’d had two membrane sweeps at this point and the first one was horrendous. It was like someone was trying to punch my uterus into responding.

The last couple of weeks of my pregnancy were the most upsetting and miserable time of my life. Post part in wasn’t much better.

Would Blinda cry me a river because I can’t impregnate anyone? If I could’ve got my male partner pregnant I would have and he could have dealt with all that while I sat on my arse drinking whiskey and waiting.

Many transwomen can make babies, many have so I would say it’s more a privilege to get someone else pregnant and avoid the problems that pregnant women go through than not carry a child.

@Bowednotbroken

I am continually in awe of the posters here who are patiently explaining facts for the millionth time, in the face of sometimes really quite strange arguments. Particularly in this thread CharleyParley - thank you!

Society really shouldn't be legislating for feelings - like some pps who feel that men can be women just because they feel like it. Just no. No thank you. Women are entitled to services and places that are single sex. Just that. Single SEX!

Spot on! 💚🤍💜👍

This is where "privilege" gets ridiculous. It's a useful concept, arguably, for class analysis of structural oppression. It is not useful to make a sweeping claim that giving birth is a privilege. I think for many many women in the world it is a significant disadvantage, often non consensual etc.

I don't drive, it makes it hard to get around sometimes, but I have more money and am probably marginally less likely to be killed in a car crash.

Do I have car privilege or non driver privilege? It depends on the individual circumstances of my life, whether I need a car, hate driving etc.

As a woman in the USA said re sports, it’s bodies that play sports, not feelings and why won’t people except that women say no. She was a star, I think her name was Clare, maybe someone can find it,I’m no good at sharing links.

Many transwomen can make babies, many have so I would say it’s more a privilege to get someone else pregnant and avoid the problems that pregnant women go through than not carry a child.

Good point. And what about those future infertile adults, given cross sex hormones as kids because society /parents /therapists thought medicalising gender non conforming gay or autistic children was a good idea?

White women are a subset of women too. There is no default setting of woman.

and how are you definining this category 'women'?

It's either horrible sexism, or outstanding ignorance which decides that pregnancy has not been used as a weapon against women, is not frequently dangerous or fatal, and has not been used as a form of discrimination and oppression. But is actually an example of wholesale privilege over men.

Although we have seen enough men fetishise menstruation, gestation, breast feeding and yes, abortion and unbelievably stillbirth, for it not to be much of a surprise, tbh.

Any minute now we'll get the 'weaponising cis experiences' insult, which is yet another way to try to guilt women into silencing their voices, prevent them and anyone else from sharing or considering the unique experience of being female, and all of it done in order to benefit people who are male.

Sexism on crack.

Oh yeah, weaponising.

Because women should conform to their gender stereotype which means stfu, don't report rape, don't tell anyone you are pregnant until it is visible, don't talk about period's etc etc.