Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GC women thrown out of Edinburgh pub

999 replies

cariadlet · 22/08/2021 20:02

Sorry if there's already a thread on this. I've been following it on twitter all day but didn't spot anything on Mumsnet.

The Edinburgh News has got a report about it.
www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/inquiry-launched-into-row-over-transphobia-in-edinburgh-pub-3355594

The reporter quotes a lot of the TRA's tweets which they would probably love but I think the reporter's just given them enough rope to hang themselves.

I'm sure the average reader who hasn't followed the trans debate won't be impressed by someone who calls themselves an "AGP porn addict male" in their twitter bio.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
Theeyeballsinthesky · 25/08/2021 06:39

Oh fuck right off with weaponising infertility!! I can’t have children & it sucks massively. Doesn’t make me a man though or indeed any less of a woman. The fact that my female biology is faulty doesbt make it not female.

My lord you sound so very young…..

Nellodee · 25/08/2021 06:39

Transwomen are not any more likely to be infertile than anyone else, as far as I am aware.

Here, this might help. Summary findings that were widely published in newspapers were that 54,000 women per year lost their job as a result of having a baby.

maternity related discrimination

Nellodee · 25/08/2021 06:42

Considering 77% of women claim to have experienced a negative or discriminatory experience at work following giving birth, it is really no wonder that mumsnet is not buying this cis privilege bullshit, is it?

WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld · 25/08/2021 06:50

Ok BilindaB
Sigh 😕
You are so sure of your position, and you must understand that legislation needs definitions, so you either think there should be no sex based legislation or we need a new definition of woman
I am only a woman because of female biology, it is the only thing I have in common with every other woman and the reason I am not a man
What is your definition?

BilindaB · 25/08/2021 06:52

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Oh fuck right off with weaponising infertility!! I can’t have children & it sucks massively. Doesn’t make me a man though or indeed any less of a woman. The fact that my female biology is faulty doesbt make it not female.

My lord you sound so very young…..

Please don't be abusive towards me, I am conducting myself in quite a hostile space - one that I am entitled to post in - with as much civility and politeness as I can muster, often when faced with clear obfuscation and bad faith arguments. It's almost like this discussion is not welcome on this, er, discussion board. But I'm not effin and jeffin am I?
Nellodee · 25/08/2021 06:53

Would you also mind linking me to the report which says one third of employers would not employ trans people, please? I could only see a webpage from Crossland solicitors, and it was a hot contradictory biased mess.

Nellodee · 25/08/2021 06:56

This is Mumsnet. The Feminism board is usually the least sweary, but I think that when you are preaching to women (some of whom are infertile), about transwomen (many of whom have children) being disadvantaged by their inability to become pregnant, you will face some anger and backlash.

BilindaB · 25/08/2021 06:58

@WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld

Ok BilindaB Sigh 😕 You are so sure of your position, and you must understand that legislation needs definitions, so you either think there should be no sex based legislation or we need a new definition of woman I am only a woman because of female biology, it is the only thing I have in common with every other woman and the reason I am not a man What is your definition?
See my 'mother' has subsets point.

'Woman' has subsets (always has, you could be young woman, a black woman, etc - I'm a woman. A cis woman. I don't mind the term so I'm using it. You're a woman (you probably knew that). Trans women are women, to be be specific, for when it matters, trans women. I'm sure any legislation can manage with what we have - indeed there has been quite a lot of legislation regarding trans people - was there ever a linguistic problem that you know of?

NecessaryScene · 25/08/2021 06:59

We are talking about privileges (for want of a less overused word) that cis women have compared to trans women.

Transwomen are male. They can have children, as males.

They have the privilege of being able to have biological children - as many as they want - without having to actually undergo the pregnancy themselves, or disrupt their life in any way.

That's a pretty fucking large one - probably one of the biggest.

Or, looking at it another way, if having a biological ability is a privilege, then their ability to inseminate women is a privilege that women don't have. So one-all on your bizarre ability=privilege counter. So transbians are especially privileged over lesbians, specifically.

BilindaB · 25/08/2021 06:59

Mumsnet, I pressed report by accident, I'm sorry.

NecessaryScene · 25/08/2021 07:03

See my 'mother' has subsets point.

Mother is a role you can play - caring for a child. Those two things - bearing a child, and raising it, are two separate things, normally under the single word mother, because they normally coincide. But they can logically be separated. Because they are two different things.

Woman is not a role you can play. That's the whole point of feminism - that there should be no woman role in society. There are biological women, but they should not be expected to play a role.

For transwomen to be "women" you would have to invent this role for women, and it should not exist. If they want to play this role, that's fine - but women don't.

As you can see from the vast number of women saying they're "non-binary" - because they've been convinced that this role that transwomen play is what women are supposed to do.

Helmetbymidnight · 25/08/2021 07:04

what is the definition of woman?

a woman has subsets?

good grief. thats not a definition - thats just bizarre.

can you try again? not 'examples' just a simple definition of your terms.

BilindaB · 25/08/2021 07:05

@NecessaryScene

We are talking about privileges (for want of a less overused word) that cis women have compared to trans women.

Transwomen are male. They can have children, as males.

They have the privilege of being able to have biological children - as many as they want - without having to actually undergo the pregnancy themselves, or disrupt their life in any way.

That's a pretty fucking large one - probably one of the biggest.

Or, looking at it another way, if having a biological ability is a privilege, then their ability to inseminate women is a privilege that women don't have. So one-all on your bizarre ability=privilege counter. So transbians are especially privileged over lesbians, specifically.

Ok, that's a fair point, I hadn't thought of it like that. Maybe some trans women feel one way about this, and others differently, so I won't speak for them on this issue.
Aparallaxia · 25/08/2021 07:07

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Cyclops10 · 25/08/2021 07:10

@KimikosNightmare Unfortunately menstruation is perceived as ‘unclean’ by many cultures. I agree that it’s not rational and often the reasoning behind it is sexism and patriarchal oppression. I think the younger generation are a lot more accepting that it’s a biological process and disagree with it more but we still avoid places of worship whilst menstruating as a sign of respect.

I agree that trans women AND trans men are not well served by our current healthcare system. And that society as a whole must seek out ways to include them but we should do this WITHOUT infringing on existing women’s rights. Abused women have a right to seek female counsellors to help them work through their trauma - the fact that this is a contested point boggles my mind. Women need to have access to single sex spaces. Women need to be single sex prisons for their safety.

Trans people also have needs but ‘needing’ their new gender identification validated by accessing certain single sex spaces is not a need, it’s a want and an entitled one at that. It’s a shame that Stonewall has spent the last few years lobbying for self-ID instead of fighting for better healthcare, better mental health provisions, better safeguarding processes and more equality in society for trans people. By arguing that females are the enemy and their rights and spaces should be encroached for self—validation hasn’t done either group any favours.

Childbirth is a privilege, I agree. But it comes with many dangers including the risk of maternal mortality, maternal injury and long term health problems. Problems that the ‘privileged’ females have to go through. And whilst the UK is a great place to give birth for females (although the report on obstetric violence is horrifying) there are many places around the world where childbirth is a forced burden upon females who have no access to education or contraception - again, females are affected by their sex and biology. So no, I don’t agree females are privileged compared to transwomen. They may have a different set of privileges but they are also oppressed and the answer to a more equal society is not trampling on female rights.

WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld · 25/08/2021 07:12

You are happy to force cis onto women? Meaningless and offensive. I am not willing to be labelled as cis. I do not accept the stereotypes society places onto my sex
Male is factual so refer to transwomen as male for clarity. It is dangerous to remove sex markers. The wrong treatment can be given which may be fatal

BatmansBat · 25/08/2021 07:17

@BilindaB you are back!

Should my 12-year old daughter be changing (no cubicles in school) with a trans girl who got an erection when looking at her? There was a Reddit thread where transwomen discussed this. One solution was to talk to the girls about how erections was a good thing.

Also, regarding pregnancy privilege. I lost my job after coming back from maternity leave. I didn’t feel that privileged. It is quite common that this happens I have found out.

WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld · 25/08/2021 07:27

That is the issue. The privacy, dignity and safety of women and children is being eroded
The very people who want to force themselves into single sex spaces are the ones you least want to be there. If a TW genuinely just wants to live their lives they would respect the need for female only spaces and be happy with third, gender neutral, space
Wanting to deny female spaces and the words to describe themselves without including males is trampling over women's rights. No different to MRA

allmywhat · 25/08/2021 07:34

you are not regularly accused of being an autogynephile

Just wanted to point out that TRAs do in fact regularly accuse all women of being autogynephiles, as part of their attempts to elide the differences between women and AGP males.

ArabellaScott · 25/08/2021 08:06

Bilinda, I'm in a rush right now, but I wanted to thank you for continuing to engage in what you see as a 'hostile' space.

I genuinely appreciate the chance to discuss these issues with someone with differing views. And especially when we can all do it politely. Smile

I am keen to try and understand other points of view. As you say, we need solutions and we need to try and find common ground.

Could you offer an answer to my question?:

This is where we reach an impasse. Because what you are calling 'males' I consider women.

What makes them women? What does a transwoman share with a woman?

  • thanks.
RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 25/08/2021 08:07

with as much civility and politeness as I can muster, often when faced with clear obfuscation and bad faith arguments

This is what you are doing, clear obfuscation and bad faith arguments. Not on purpose I’m sure

And most posters are being civil and polite, just as you are

But if you upset someone you don’t get to tell them how they should react

Tisha0 · 25/08/2021 08:09

@BilindaB - it is quite telling that you keep using the c*s word after being informed by several different posters that it is offensive. It shows a lack of genuine intent to discuss, making you appear disingenuous and aggressive. In this forum, please do not use that word.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/08/2021 08:10

A cis woman. I don't mind the term so I'm using it.

What about women, like most of the women on this thread, who aren't "cis"? If you want to label yourself as a subset of women that's fine. But it's a bit rich to give silly labels to others who don't identify as you do when you're preaching the dogma that everyone has the right to identify as they wish and that should be respected.

It's a meaningless in group label people use to show allegiance to a cause I don't support, essentially, beyond wanting all people to have equal human rights. I don't subscribe to gender identity ideology so I will only use "cis" for "not trans" if "trans woman" means an FTM trans person. Because a woman is the word for an adult female human and FTM trans people are also biologically female. Like a vixen is a female fox and a doe is a female rabbit.

I mean, most people know that, even when they pretend they don't.

Helleofabore · 25/08/2021 08:11

You have to be kidding about women having privilege over males who identify as women. You really do.

I am another one who lost their job for being pregnant. Oh. And was told by my male GP that millions of women were pregnant and dealt with nausea, why did I think I was special. Plus a number of other male doctors telling me the same thing about the significant pain of my periods. So …. Wonderful not only to have the privilege of carrying the risk of gestation (and it is really offensive to equate the male inability to gestate a child with female infertility) and lose my job because of it, but also have a poor quality of care because I was female.

I find your explanations of this privilege to seem to come straight from the trans influencer blogs and to not be based in reality at all. I cannot believe a feminist, supposedly since the 80s, would come out with this narrative otherwise.

As to discrimination in the workplace, you are partly right but rather than shore up those problem bit, lobby groups have in fact focused on diluting the legislation put in practice to protect females (all females). You cannot shoe horn trans protections into female protections or to prioritise gender over sex there.

You are right in stating they can experience discrimination. However, your implication was that females have privilege there, so I can only interpret that as being you think women are no longer discriminated against. Well, obviously you are wrong on many levels there.

Discrimination against females starts at birth. As a parent of a teen, I have watched discrimination at play via different avenues to already affect my teen to restrict their opportunities. I would question ANY parent of a current young person who stated that females never experience discrimination due to their sex during school, sport, etc.

So, when does the ‘privilege’ kick in?

When does my child start to feel that privilege you are telling me they have? Particularly if they are a lesbian and are now being told via social media they need to never say out loud that they don’t do dicks else be subject to re-education.

And then I question when a late transitioner who has had their children and their career unaffected by their children and the benefit of being male all the way through their school and career, when does their privilege take a dive? (And likely to have had a wife/partner who not only gestated those children but took on the largest share of care while allowing that male to have support in their career). Because, there are many transwomen who fit this category.

And even the late transitioners who don’t have children at all, when did their privilege take a dive please?

And can you then tell us how privileged a female is to be reduced to using words that describe our body parts and functions instead of being described as women?

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 25/08/2021 08:12

Ok, that's a fair point, I hadn't thought of it like that. Maybe some trans women feel one way about this, and others differently, so I won't speak for them on this issue

That is very good of you to say, lots of posters would just ignore the point moving forward